The Gearbox Podcast

Jimmy Purdy [00:00:13]:
My name is Jimmy Purdy, shop owner, master tech transmission builder, and the host of the Gearbox podcast. Here I talk with new and seasoned shop owners, as well as industry professionals about day to day operations within their own shops and all the failures and successes that come along the way from what grinds your gears to having to shift gears in the automotive industry. This is the Gearbox podcast.

Justin Zupko [00:00:39]:
Okay?

Jimmy Purdy [00:00:39]:
Otherwise, I'll forget to push record again. It always sucks when you're half hour into a conversation. Then all of a sudden, you're like, oh, yeah, I should probably start recording. Yeah, well, I appreciate you coming.

Justin Zupko [00:00:55]:
You know, I have a YouTube channel I started a year ago, and I tried doing live sessions, and I was just. It's difficult. My hats off to you, because, for one, I'm not the narrator type, and I enjoy making videos. I have a hundred videos on my YouTube channel, and they're all, like, know videos, like, how I diagnose this, how I diagnose that, but, like, just right to the, like, there's no, like, me talking about anything. Just like, this is what I did, and then that's it. End of video.

Jimmy Purdy [00:01:29]:
What's the name of your channel?

Justin Zupko [00:01:30]:
It's OCD Auto. Yeah. The biggest view I have is for. I did a review on basically the four cylinder turbo and the Wrangler, that engine. I did a really lengthy review that was also overlapped with me. I had a GoPro on. I was doing spark plugs and bore scoping the cylinders on this 2.0 turbo wrangler and, like, a 19 wrangler. And anyways, yeah, I just thought, well, I've got all this video footage.

Justin Zupko [00:02:03]:
I got to say something. So I just started talking about the different versions of the engine, and I thought, well, after I do this, I thought, well, I'll put it in a jeep forum and the jeep forum. That's one thing I found that's really helpful. If you're going to make videos on a channel is you got to plan them in different forums so people can actually see.

Jimmy Purdy [00:02:24]:
I don't. I don't do videos.

Justin Zupko [00:02:26]:
Yeah.

Jimmy Purdy [00:02:27]:
One thing I've never really dabbled into is doing the YouTube videos. It seems just like a lot of work.

Justin Zupko [00:02:31]:
It is. A lot of, like, the guys that are doing it well have learned to edit on the fly or do no editing, and they're just like, here, I'm going to just wear this camera all day. And some of the guys have a lot of subscribers, and, yeah, they have good advice, but they're not always telling the shop owners what's going on. So that could be bad for the shop. If that person that has a channel at that dealership, for example, doesn't disclose that to the general managers, and next thing you know, you got the car companies knocking on the door like, hey, why are you doing this? In our.

Jimmy Purdy [00:03:12]:
True. How do you feel about that, about gatekeepers? Because I know a lot of the time when we talk about YouTube channels and there's a lot of really talented guys that are on there now. Right. But there's the other side of the coin where it's like they want to gatekeep. Like, oh, you're just ruining the industry because you're giving away all the secrets.

Justin Zupko [00:03:35]:
Yeah, I think that we're kind of past hold. So guys like you and me, I've been doing it for 20 something years, probably 21 years. And anyways, I was raised with guys that held onto the knowledge and they didn't really share it. And that was because there was no Internet. And if there was, it wasn't affordable. And now that you have a database of great videos on every car repair trouble code you can think of, you just got to know where to look. I think there's no holding on to knowledge anymore because that guy that holds onto the knowledge and gatekeeps is now not really being helpful. And at that point, there's someone else that's got that knowledge and that's put it on YouTube at this point.

Justin Zupko [00:04:24]:
But I am in a forum I pay to be in called diagnostic network, and it's $50 a year. I highly recommend it. And what we do is we take our, let's say a Prius. Been to the dealer, been to all kinds of places, still had a misfire, cold start misfire. And eleven Prius. Well, every shop was like, oh, it needs a head gasket. Well, the head gasket was just done, but there was a little bit of coolant getting in the cylinder. But in the end, the conclusion was it was missing one of the rockers, one of the valves was never opening.

Justin Zupko [00:04:54]:
But I document in this diagnostic network the start to finish, sometimes videos, too, and how we got there, what codes we had, or like what maybe monitors not setting on a vehicle. Really complicated stuff can network issues, and we document our process and it's really helpful for beginners and stuff like that. And without that type of help, I mean, the independent shops don't have what the dealers have. When you're at a dealership, you have a tech department that you call up or that you email or whatever and say, hey, look, I've got this 17 ram. It's not setting the Knox monitor. What do I do? And they kind of guide you through it. Not to say that they're engineers. These are retired mechanics, ASC mechanics, and they're sitting at a desk, usually in Detroit, and they typically are retired in the area that you need help with.

Justin Zupko [00:05:45]:
And they're like, okay, well let's go ahead and try this, this and this. Or we know of this merging problem because we have a million dealerships to look at the repair orders on. Kind of like when you go on pro demand and it says most common fixes dealer has that same thing, or.

Jimmy Purdy [00:06:00]:
Identifix or any of those kind of, right?

Justin Zupko [00:06:02]:
So we're basically, nowadays we're all connected to one another without us realizing or not. So even at an independent shop or autozone, everyone catalogs everything. Everything's a statistic now. So in the future, if you need to figure out a complicated trouble code, somewhere on the Internet is a database that probably has great notes on how to diagnose that random car issue. And eventually it might get to the point where you just type in these trouble codes, but you still need someone to deep think the problem because, yeah, that might have worked for that one, that rocker arm missing, but that doesn't mean that's the only cause of a misfire.

Jimmy Purdy [00:06:45]:
Exactly.

Justin Zupko [00:06:47]:
In the end, you still have to have someone able to critical think through it. And that's where we come in.

Jimmy Purdy [00:06:54]:
Yeah, just like the advent of like, oh, computers are going to take, or robots are going to take our job or AI is going to take our job, right? There's no way. And that's a great point you brought up because that's exactly how I think about it too. Sure, you have the gatekeepers out there that want to say, or the guys that say they're gatekeeping and you're going to give away all the secrets, but you can't. Because that code, there's so many different issues for that code. There's so many different issues that can cause that symptom, right? And sure there are certain things that like a loose wheel bearing, well, there's not much more than a loose wheel bearing that's going to cause that. But when you're talking about like high level diag stuff, there's no way. There's no way you could say, like you said, a misfire is only going to be a rocker arm or it's only going to be a spark plug, or it's only going to be a bad coil or whatever. You could take some of that information.

Jimmy Purdy [00:07:42]:
Like, if you start looking into fuel trims and whatnot, you could probably narrow it down to maybe two or three different things instead of 15, but you still need a body there. You still need a body there to check it and actually verify those last two components. It's not a perfect.

Justin Zupko [00:08:03]:
So I dealt with a lot of lemon law vehicles for new cars. The way it works with Chrysler is if you have a beef wrangler that has three attempts at a repair and it's still under some type of warranty, it gets bought back, and then it goes to a buyback dealership. And that's usually in, like, La or San Francisco. There's one or two in each state that are buyback dealership. And they're a normal dealership, usually a big dealership in a big city. But they deal with all the lemon law buyback cars, and they try and fix them. And quite often you'll see cars getting bought back. Because Chrysler, to turn on their modules, they have to use the can network because it's cheaper.

Justin Zupko [00:08:46]:
They can't afford another set of copper wires for ignition anymore, so they cut the cost. Now all the modules are can network triggered on. So to wake them up, you got that going on. But the problem with that is every little loose connection on that can network. So any harness connectors that are overspread, if you hit a bump and it momentarily goes open on the can high or can low, that could actually be translated as a signal in hex code that, hey, we want to shut down your radio, or we want to shut down the cluster. We want to shut down maybe half the network. So I've seen that a lot where I've seen these dealers replace every module. And then what caused it? Well, a loose pin, a harness connector pin that was for the can higher can load because they're so reliant on can network to keep these modules alive.

Justin Zupko [00:09:40]:
And so think nowadays, you don't need mechanics as much as you need electricians, and you need some guys that understand that. And that's a really scary subject. I could talk about that for hours because they did assessments, and 85% of the guys were not passing the necessary levels for the hybrid and electric cars that are coming.

Jimmy Purdy [00:10:02]:
Well, it's high level electronic diagnostic, too. You're talking about can bus networks, networking, and like you said, it's a momentarily switching. And I've had AC compressors. You disconnect it and plug it back in, and the connection, for whatever reason, doesn't, who knows what? But then it comes back because the AC is not working. You unplug it, plug it back in again, and then it starts working. And then you're like, well, what happened here? It's just a loose pin, like, but that could get even deeper when you're talking about modules, body control modules. I mean, anything on the catnin work. And then you ask guys, hey, what's a breakout box? And they're like looking at you cross eyed.

Jimmy Purdy [00:10:44]:
You're like, really? Because that's like step one. That's such a low level way of testing your can network. If you don't know what a breakout box is, you have no business trying to diagnose a can network fault.

Justin Zupko [00:10:58]:
Yeah, exactly.

Jimmy Purdy [00:11:00]:
You get a U code and it's like, they just must need a computer because it has a U code.

Justin Zupko [00:11:07]:
Lately I've been on a journey to take any no communication modules. Like, I have a 20 year old e five Ford module, and it would lose communication. And I'm in there on the circuit board. I'm taking this computer apart. I've got a microscope and a lab scope picoscope. And I'm like checking this and that. Well, there's no data sheets on these Ford e five computers at all. And in the form that I'm in, there's engineers in there as well.

Justin Zupko [00:11:35]:
And the engineer was like, oh yeah, I helped design that chip. I helped design that Ford. I would work for Ford. I was a Ford engineer. We designed that circuitry. And of course, he's not going to even give up a lot of it because it's not public knowledge. So that's the other problem, is when Henry Ford came out with cars 100 years ago, you had a carburetor that you could open up on your bench in the garage at home. And you'd be like, okay, I can sketch a copy of this, or I can take out a harness out of the model t and sketch a diagram of how it goes, and then maybe I start a shop.

Justin Zupko [00:12:09]:
But nowadays you have circuitry, that is, there's no information on that. Like, if you want to repair a circuit board, yeah, you can look at blown capacitors and replace capacitors, but if there's nothing visually wrong with it, good luck trying to diagnose it. And so a lot of what we run into is the industry wants smart guys that can see into the board and understand every part of it, but we don't want to give the information away. There's no right to repair the car companies, even though they know all the other car companies are using the same Motorola chipset. They don't want to give out any information because God forbid somebody figures out how to repair these computers for $20.

Jimmy Purdy [00:12:56]:
Yeah, it just opens up a whole new car.

Justin Zupko [00:13:01]:
Companies want to sell new cars. And so the only way I found out how to repair circuit boards is just getting a lot of help from people that rebuild them for a living and just ask them nicely, like, hey, how do you do this? How do you do that? And they just make notes, and they just have ways of reverse engineering it.

Jimmy Purdy [00:13:23]:
Yeah. As far as module repair, it's one of those things you cut to the chase when you're talking about running a business, and then you're going to open up this computer and try to figure out what's wrong on the circuit board. I mean, obviously, you just buy a new computer, and if that's what the issue is, you just buy a module. Right? I don't know how you'd be able to charge to go in and say, well, I'll look inside of it and see if I can find what's wrong with it. I mean, it's kind of like back in the early days with automatic transmissions and not having a flowchart in the valve body. You just replaced the valve body. But now we have so much information out there where you can test passages, you can use a vacuum tester. And so kind of on that point of being able to look inside and know exactly how all those processes and all those things are working and be able to identify what the problem is and fix that circuit, it's just planned obsolescence.

Jimmy Purdy [00:14:13]:
It's like the same with alternators. Nobody fixes alternators anymore or starter motors. You just buy the new one. And now they're doing that with the cars. It's like they're making these cars. It's like you got a bad module where there's nine of them. They all have to be replaced at the same time. So it's going to be like 15 grand, and you're like, well, just buy a new car.

Jimmy Purdy [00:14:33]:
What are you talking about? All because of who knows why that module failed. But it's just crazy, especially with the Stellantis and the Chrysler. I mean, getting into that high level module repair and replacement, it's like, I can't blame most shops for wanting to stay out of that. And I feel like the spot for the mobile tech. Because you're mobile, right?

Justin Zupko [00:14:55]:
Yeah, I'm mobile.

Jimmy Purdy [00:14:57]:
Yeah. So I feel like that's where that spot has opened up and allowed the high level mobile techs to come in and kind of fill that void where the brick and mortar stores just stay in and they just do the maintenance work. They do the low level, b level, if you want to call it b level tech work. Just the stuff that's in and out. As soon as something complicated comes up or a problem arises to invest in all steep. It's just like with adas. Do we invest in adas now? Do we set a whole bay up in the shop and take all that real estate for these adas problems? Is anybody actually going to want to fix these problems? It's like, where is this going? And it's the same gearing up for a lot of that high level diagnostic stuff. You're relying on one tech in that shop to do that because typically the owner is not going to have the time to do it.

Jimmy Purdy [00:15:45]:
No, it's a tough situation, but I feel like that mobile tech is where that void is being filled and what makes the most sense.

Justin Zupko [00:15:54]:
Yeah. So I started out a year ago. All my career, I was always like the diagnostic and electrical guy. Drivability, electrical. I do diesels and engine work and I enjoyed doing engine work, but I've got a bad back and so that had to stop. But yeah, I originally got into the industry in 1999 after going to UTI in Phoenix, and I took hot rod performance and I got associate's degree in automotive. And then I took the extra course for three months to learn how to build race motors. And I almost got on with like NASCAR and a pit crew.

Justin Zupko [00:16:31]:
And I was like, you know what, I can't travel. So I grew up in Fresno. I ended up just working at electric laboratories in Fresno. It was like 100 year old shop in Fresno, the best electrical shop in California in my opinion. And they taught me how to use all the factory scan tools back in the day when those were not even close to affordable for most shops, they had every factory scan tool. And I just kind of went from there and realized, okay, well, one day I want to open up a shop. That's all I do is diagnosing and lots of electrical. And so now I'm doing it and I go to shops and I'm like, hey, I can help you with problem vehicles, this and that.

Justin Zupko [00:17:14]:
And it's hard to prove that somebody can even do that. And sometimes it's ego, too, where the shop maybe and no one tells you why, maybe they don't call you, maybe they don't like me. But it's hard for me to prove that I can help more than they can in that situation. Not that I'm smarter than anybody, but it usually has to do with, like, you have to have somebody completely disconnected from the normal eight hour shift to focus on some of these problems. You can't have somebody thinking about a brake job coming in in the morning and diagnose something late in the evening. That's complicated.

Jimmy Purdy [00:17:49]:
That's a good point.

Justin Zupko [00:17:50]:
Yeah, you got to have a clean slate. And that's what the dealerships prosper is because they have a tech rep. When stuff hits the fan, they got somebody that can come in that's got associates in automotive, like I do, and you do, possibly. And you got somebody that is tied directly with engineer cell phone numbers, and he's like, okay, we'll get this done. And he's got engineering level software, scan tools. He can change VIN numbers. He can get used computers to work. He's the guy.

Justin Zupko [00:18:19]:
But the problem is now is there's so many shops and dealers that need that tech rep with Chrysler that they're backed up a month to two months to get them out to a dealer. And it's only getting worse because shortages. But, yeah, it's just, I don't know, just going on a ramp. But basically, my business has been somewhat successful, but I haven't done a lot of advertising either. I tend to stick with the close by shops, and I just start to get to know shop owners and try and figure out. Some of them are like, no, we don't need any help. We send it to this shop totally fine. I went and hit up caliber collision, and they're like, oh, no, we have in house.

Justin Zupko [00:19:02]:
So I called the CEO of caliber collision in Texas. I was like, hey, you sure you don't need. He's like, well, no, we just bought a company like yours. And that's all he did was do what you're doing. So keep on doing it, keep on fighting. But we just bought some guy and his rolling diagnostic equipment vehicle and his employees, and now they do it for caliber on the west coast. They just go and program stuff, deal with, can network and crash cars. That's all they.

Justin Zupko [00:19:29]:
So that's kind of what I want to do. But it's hard because either they have somebody already, if they're a franchise, or they don't know who I am, and they don't know. I don't know. I'm not really a great salesperson.

Jimmy Purdy [00:19:45]:
Typically, technicians aren't the best salespeople.

Justin Zupko [00:19:48]:
Yeah, exactly.

Jimmy Purdy [00:19:49]:
That's usually how that works. Most text turn owners, that's usually where the failing goes. Because I don't know. It's like having an interview and you're hiring someone on for your team and it's like you just don't know what's going on in their head. And you're asking all these questions and it's like, I don't even know what questions I need to ask you to get what I want out of you. It's like you almost just got to go sit down and hang out for an hour to figure out who each other are. But even then, I've hired guys and it's taken 90 days. It's taken past the probation date, like 100 days before they do something.

Jimmy Purdy [00:20:19]:
I'm like, oh, okay. Because you're never going to see the same car twice in a month until you finally get that shining star comes in. It's like, oh, I see where you shine. Now I know what to market for. Now I know what to bring in. Now I know what you're going to be good for because there's just so much in the auto industry that you could be good and bad at. And if a guy doesn't like changing oil and he's fantastic at can bus diagnostics, that's still a very big asset to your shop. But if you got him sitting there doing oil changes all day, then you're just like, why did I hire this guy? You'll never find out who he is.

Jimmy Purdy [00:20:56]:
It just takes so long. It's all on that point of technician turn, owner, client comes in and it's like, trust me, I can fix it. It's like, what do you mean trust you? I don't even know who you are. Yeah, what do you mean? It's such a hard thing to try to convey when you're making that pivot from being an auto technician to an owner. It's like, okay, I got to stop being a tech when I'm talking to this customer because you go in there and start giving them all kinds of bullshit they don't want to hear about. All they want to know is that you're going to fix it. You're going to take care of them. They don't need to know all that other stuff.

Jimmy Purdy [00:21:32]:
Yeah.

Justin Zupko [00:21:32]:
And I also am not advertising that much because I learned quickly what shops need the most help with. It's like P 300 codes. Because most shops, if it's a can network or electrical issue, they're not even going to call me because they're sending them directly to the dealership. That's how that seems to go. Just go to the dealership. Well, what does happen? I see a lot of is like, oh, we put an LKQ motor in it, and we got a P 300, and it's like, okay, well, let me look at it. And sure enough, you do a relative compression on this Triton motor, and it shows it's cylinder two misfiring, okay, but compression good, mechanical gauges, everything looks good. And you're like, well, let me put a pressure transducer in it.

Justin Zupko [00:22:17]:
And so one of the first jobs I got at the beginning of the year was like, I've got this nice, expensive picoscope pressure transducer kit. And I'm like, I'm looking at it, and I'm like, thank God I'm in this forum, this diagnostic network. But even then, I could not tell you exactly why it was a mechanical issue, but I couldn't say exactly why it was causing the misfire. And all the senior guys, senior pressure transducer shop owners in this network were like, well, try this, try that. And I can't keep going back out of town to keep looking at it. So I gather as much data as I can on the time that I was there at that shop, and then I spend a few days reviewing it, and then maybe I get another call a month later, hey, I got a p three whatever misfire code on this 300,000 miles vortex. And then I slowly get better at it, and I slowly recognize what is causing what. But there's no.

Justin Zupko [00:23:16]:
Unfortunately, working at the dealership, I didn't have the money for all this equipment. I didn't have pressure transducer stuff. That was kind of never required. And now at Dodge dealers, they supply a picoscope to all dodge dealers now. But they don't supply pressure transducers to stick in the cylinder, basically to check cylinder performance on the pressure transducer, which that you can actually go in the wrong direction if you're not really familiar with scopes, because you're like, oh, well, I think I know what that means. There's no for sure answer. With scopes, you really have to dive deep. So it's a little scary sometimes.

Jimmy Purdy [00:24:01]:
Yeah, well, and on that point, you're always looking at a broken vehicle. So I even imagine at the dealership, I'm sure they don't get a lot of time to pull in a normally good running vehicle and be like, can I just pull some waveforms off of this to see what it's supposed to look like? So everyone always pulls the scope out when there's a problem. And I think we're all kind of guilty of doing that. It just sits on the shelf until we get this complex problem from another shop or something just goes south. And then you want to pull the scope out. But not to say a scan tool gives you the answer, but the scope is not going to identify what the problem is or say, give you a little red section. It's like, okay, this is what doesn't look right. You know what I mean? So it's like you got to constantly be looking at it.

Jimmy Purdy [00:24:47]:
And on all that note of using the WPS 5000, that pressure transducer, it takes so long to learn the towers. If they're leaning, if they're not leaning. And looking at the valve overlap and seeing, being able to overlay the timing sequence of the cylinders to see, okay, this is at 30 degree. 30 degree. And being able to differentiate, oh, well, the intake valve is not opening soon enough, or the exhaust valve is opening too late or whatever. You can identify all that stuff, but there's no playbook for that. I don't know if you've ever watched Bernie Thompson on ATS. So it's like in his scan tool, he's got all that programming built into it.

Jimmy Purdy [00:25:26]:
It's like, okay, well, that makes it a lot more user friendly than the pico, but they both do the same thing. So I hear that all the time. The question is like, which lab scope should I buy? It's like, well, what do you know?

Justin Zupko [00:25:37]:
That's a common discussion. And the Forum diagnostic network. And so, $8,000, I think, for a good eight channel ATS scope. That Bernie Thompson, he designs that stuff. And he's really smart guy, right? Yeah, he's next level. He, 20 years ago, must have started doing what I was doing. I was like, well, let me just start figuring out electrical engineering and somehow got so good at it. And I'm sure he networks with engineers that actually do it for a living and designed chipsets.

Justin Zupko [00:26:09]:
But yeah, you're right. My best advice, because I really want to put on class because I have some really good data on good vehicles like Hemis. I have good vehicles that I pulled from the dealer. And then I have not good vehicles for relative compression, good, not good cam lifter and Cam lobe wear on hemis, I've got good data on. So that stuff is really useful, like what to look for if the intake lobe is worn on a relative compression versus exhaust lobe worn, or that lifter's roller on a hemi. Like little things like that. But that's only useful for guys that work on dodges every day. And usually the Dodge dealers, they just go with process, or usually they can hear it, like, oh, I hear that lifter.

Justin Zupko [00:27:04]:
You move the coil on a hemi. Really easy to do. Move the injector and plugs. Really easy to do. It's still misfiring. Okay, well, let's tear the motor apart. Simple push rod motor. There's no real need for a scope.

Justin Zupko [00:27:17]:
But I'll tell you, like Chrysler, now that they're owned by Stellantis, Chrysler is now a european car company. There's nothing american about Chrysler Dodge brand anymore. They're owned by Peugeot and Fiat. And at this point, the next motors coming out in the Ram pickup are going to be twin turbo inline sixes. And the Hemi is going away. The cars with hemis are just not going to exist. In a year or two, that's going to be now everything that you see is going to be like a BMW under the hood of an american ram or charger. These engines are not going to be easy to diagnose anymore because there's so much stacked on them.

Justin Zupko [00:28:03]:
And so now I feel like you have a need to. And that's probably why they're pushing the scopes. You have a need to have quick diagnostic capability for a sticky valve or a leaky valve. Because these are such high worked engines with twin turbos, you're going to start seeing a lot of sticky carbon duty valves. Now, on dodges, you're going to start seeing burnt valves, and you need some way of detecting that. And one good way of detecting that is an intake attached pulse sensor. They call them first look sensors, sometimes maybe one in the exhaust and look for an anomaly. But again, they're not training any of the techs at the dealer level to use any of that stuff, even though it's an accessory of the stuff they mandated they use.

Justin Zupko [00:28:47]:
But that learning curve, I don't think they'll ever really get anyone on that level, because it's all voluntary. Everyone that I've talked to that has a picoscope, WPS 500 x and stuff like that, and different sensors, and they spent thousands and maybe ATS scope. Well, those guys are usually doing that with their own credit card. As technicians at dealerships, the shops aren't paying for that.

Jimmy Purdy [00:29:17]:
Right. Well, even independent repair shops, it's pretty rare to find an owner that's going to buy their tech, that maybe they'll have it there at the shop, but it's quite an investment. And then you got to train them, and it's like you're looking for the return on investment, right. I mean, obviously, at the end of the day, yeah, you want your techs to be trained, you want to be well supplied, but you buy an $8,000 scope, how many of these complicated problems are you really having? It's like, on your point of a lot of this stuff, you don't need a scope for. And there's also that conversation I see a lot on the forums as well. It's like, well, I don't need a scope because I can fix 90% of the issues without one. And they've got their ways of doing the old coil swap, doing the injector swap, all the different ways that we've learned over the years to quickly diagnose these vehicles. And it's like, by the time you get that scope out of the box and hooked up, I already know what coil is bad.

Jimmy Purdy [00:30:16]:
Even if it's under a manifold, it's like, how much does it take to pull that manifold off and just pull that one coil from the back? That might be misfire into the front. So there's that argument, too. But once you get really good with a scope, there's nothing that you can't fix, and it's tough, and it just goes back to the same point, is like, how much do you invest into your shop and your techs to get into that high level position? For them to just kind of stand around, they're just going to go back to the line tech, because that's what makes money, is getting on the line and just removing and replacing components. And then once or twice a month, maybe, hopefully not that much, but you get these hard issues come in where you got to get the scope out and do this high level diag. I don't know. Obviously, the volume is a shop that's not probably a lot bigger than mine to need a dedicated bay for these diagnostic issues. And then do you really want to spread that word around town, like, hey, guys, if you guys got these problems that you can't figure it out, bring it over to me. I'll figure it out.

Jimmy Purdy [00:31:13]:
I don't know if I want to.

Justin Zupko [00:31:14]:
Be one thing I don't want to be blown out is like, hey, you got problem cars? Gladly, I'll look at them. But I'm learning very quickly that if I'm going to be that shop, I have to have full access, which means closer per order at that shop. I've got general liability insurance and everything else. And so if something happens while I'm on your property working on the diagnosis, at your shop. Hey, great, it'll get taken care of. But hey, I need to talk directly with that customer. So like, okay, Mr. Customer, how much are you willing to spend figuring this problem out? Because I'm going to spend 3 hours asking you questions, looking the vehicle over, looking over the notes so far of the shop, and then I will start looking at it from scratch, starting over myself because something was missed.

Justin Zupko [00:32:07]:
And some people at that point just say, hey, you know what? I'm willing to spend 500 or 300 or just get it done. But usually the people are out of money at that point and there's no money left. So now it's kind of on the shop. And dealers sometimes are like, hey, just figure it out. But that is really difficult because it's not easy money. That type of work rarely comes quickly. My conclusions rarely happen very easily. Sometimes it's simple.

Justin Zupko [00:32:39]:
Like a shop had a misfire code on a Honda Odyssey and I was like, oh, I look at it and he was adamant it wasn't the coils. But then he read the firing order wrong and sure enough, it was just a coil. And that I figured out within an hour. But he had to spend hours on it because he read this firing order wrong. And there's easier ways to figure that out. That's why I always disconnect a coil on that cylinder to make sure I'm actually getting the firing order right. But people don't think like that because they haven't been doing dryability for 20 years. So I don't blame people for.

Jimmy Purdy [00:33:23]:
It. Goes to your point in going back to getting a fresh set of eyes because you're frustrated. You got 1000 things going on and you took one piece of information as Bible. You read something somewhere and then you just kind of ran with that. Instead of going back and starting from square one again and reevaluating your whole process, let me make sure that firing order is right. You just already looked at the firing order. I already checked that off the list. And so to have someone come in with a fresh set of eyes, it just changes everything.

Jimmy Purdy [00:33:53]:
But I mean, those are few and far between, right? I mean, I've had plenty of vehicles towed in from other shops because they won't start. And you throw a couple of gallons of gas in it and they fire right up like, well, the gas gauge is broken. I'm like, so you didn't think about putting gas in it? It happens. Whatever. We get to have a good chuckle about it. I can give them a hard time. And it is what it is that one's on me, guys. Don't worry about it.

Jimmy Purdy [00:34:16]:
But yeah, for the most part, you're going to get something that it's already been to five, six, seven different shops. They've already spent thousands of dollars and then it's on you. I hear the same story all the time. It's like, why is it going to be so much? Well, go talk to the people that didn't fix it. I just never understood that. I've never understood that thought process from clients that come in and now they're with you or with the last shop. Hopefully they're the saving grace and they don't want to go back to the previous shops that took a bunch of money from them that didn't fix the problem. Because in my head, if I don't fix the problem, I'm not charging you for it.

Jimmy Purdy [00:34:53]:
So I have that added anxiety and that added stress. Why can't I be one of the first shops in line that got paid to do nothing? You know what I mean? That sounds way easier than what I'm up against right now. I don't know, it's crazy. So a lot of talk about having a retainer too, for diagnostic work. How do you go about pricing that stuff? You kind of analyze and then you get a good idea of how much time you're going to spend or how do you analyze that situation?

Justin Zupko [00:35:24]:
Because I'm a mobile mechanic in the area today I got a call. I was like, hey, I'm price shopping for ignition switch. And I knew what it was when she told me they were making model. And anytime somebody is price shopping, I usually tell them, hey, look, I'm the same rate as any shop. You might not get any type of discount if you go to me. In this case, it was a fair price even then. That fair price without even charging diagnosis was a lot for this customer. It was like $300 for basically repairing the Wrangler ignition rod, braking where the switch doesn't turn, and parts and labor.

Justin Zupko [00:36:05]:
$300, no diagnosis fee. I knew what it was over the phone. Told her that too. I was really honest. That's a lot of what I find is like, there's a lot of people that cannot afford car repair. My role growing up as a kid is either fixed it yourself because you couldn't afford a mechanic or you had to set money aside. Well, no one sets money aside for diagnostic fees and tire fees and brake fees. And so everyone, as it is, is just so.

Justin Zupko [00:36:38]:
I find that there's that huge hurdle of financials that now we won't get into. But what do I charge for a diagnostic? I usually tell people, hey, look, it's going to be $250 for me to go in there if it's been looked at before, and that's what we'll start at. 150 an hour is my labor rate and 250 give you a few hours of my time. We've already talked on the phone, but I'm going to go in there with my scopes and everything else and look at it. And usually that is okay, but I get a lot of calls for 25 year old vehicles, early OBD, two OBD, one stuff. And I'm like, well, why are you calling me? I'm a mobile mechanic and I take a lot of them, unfortunately for me, because I like good data on my scopes. But I go and I look at this stuff and I'm like, the cost of labor for a technician these days has exceeded the value of these 20 year old cars. And it's like, what do people do? They go to parts stores or find a shade tree and then it just goes south from there.

Justin Zupko [00:37:51]:
And I hate to say it, but people can't really afford diagnosing, let alone repairing. A lot of times I have to just be careful and almost quiz people without before I look at the cars and say, trying to figure out, can you afford what I think it's going to be? Can you afford if it's going to be $1,000? That's a hard question to ask people without them ever stepping foot in the door of your establishment. It's like, can you afford if this goes to 1000 or $2,000? Not because I'm trying to rip you off at all, but I just know with these codes and this model, this is probably what it's going to end up being if I can figure that out before I get my hands in ro started. Oh, man, that saves so much heartache. So I do a good job of basically interrogating my new customers to figure out if they can afford what might be going down. So that's just what I do.

Jimmy Purdy [00:38:49]:
Yeah, that's a smart way to do it. Yeah. The one thing we get, if it comes from other shops, is having a retainer in a sense of like, we're probably going to have two or 3 hours in this and it's the same thing. Are you willing to spend 500, $600 to figure out what the problem is, not to fix it, but just for us to tell you what the problem is? And that's what it's going to be that much yeah. So you got to have that conversation, like, do you want to go buy a new vehicle, or do you want to fix this one? And I think there's been a big push for me anyway, in this area of 20 year old vehicles getting a lot of money invested into them, and to each their own. I mean, if it's me, I'd probably do the same thing, too. I don't know about these new vehicles now. I mean, they're not getting cheaper to fix.

Jimmy Purdy [00:39:36]:
And then you still have the insurance and the registration of a brand new car, plus that 60,000 or $70,000 price tag on top of everything. And I think that's a conversation I have a lot, too. You know, that just because it's new doesn't mean it's not going to break. A transmission service is like $900 on an eight or nine speed Chrysler transmission. That's just the fluid in the filter, and we're not making a ton of money on it. That's all just going for parts and fluid. So you get to an old 2000 Chevy, it's like that's cut almost way below half on a trans service anyways. Yeah.

Jimmy Purdy [00:40:14]:
Maybe you should be spending five or six grand to keep this old truck on the road.

Justin Zupko [00:40:17]:
Yeah.

Jimmy Purdy [00:40:17]:
You see, the better way to go.

Justin Zupko [00:40:19]:
2010, 2012 grand Cherokees hitting these used car lots in these big cities, and the air suspension doesn't work, and it's four wheel drive. Service light is on and the dash is peeling. And there's all these issues going on because people are only fixing what they need to keep the car running. They're not worried about radios cutting out, because all that stuff is just too much money back to the affordability of car repairs. So what do people do? Most people now, lower middle class people, will go and they'll get a car used or new from a dealership, and they're going to get an extended warranty. And that's not a bad idea to get an extended warranty. But there's different levels of extended warranties. There's in house extended warranty that covers a lot less.

Justin Zupko [00:41:07]:
Or there's a manufacturer's extended warranty, like Maxcare, for example, covers almost everything on that car for the same price. Well, what's the dealer going to do? They're going to sell the in house because they want to make more money. And so the problem with that lies in carmax type dealerships, where they have their own extended warranty. They don't cover heated seat issues, they may not cover service. Four wheel drive issues like those warning lights and stuff like that. So you have a lot of these cars rolling around that are halfway broken that no one can afford to fix unless you're a mechanic. And I see a ton of that where just people are just rolling around with, like, every. It's like a Christmas tree in their car, and they're just like, I just needed to pass smog or I just needed to run and stuff like that.

Justin Zupko [00:41:54]:
But, yeah, I don't know.

Jimmy Purdy [00:41:58]:
It's like every BMW on the road, I didn't know so much to repair these things. It's like, well, you got the expensive car. You got the expensive repair cost.

Justin Zupko [00:42:07]:
I have a shop owner, or he owns a construction company locally, and I'm looking at his Porsche, and I was like. And a shop referred me to this shop's customer. And so that's another thing I'm really good about. I'm like, hey, I helped you on your porsche, but please keep going back to that shop, because I don't like snaking other people's work, and I don't do repairs past 3 hours anyways, unless it's special occasion. Like, I'm not really a mobile mechanic. In other words, I'm more of like a diagnostic guy. Yeah, because I don't want to take any shops work, and I don't have time anyways. But anyway, so I go looking at this Porsche, and he's like, it was like, $350 parts and labor to get this convertible top to work again is what it cost.

Justin Zupko [00:42:50]:
And he was like, blown away. He's like, how is it only that much? And I said, well, the fluid was $40 from the dealer for 8oz. And then the labor, it was pretty easy to put that 2oz in there to get it working again. And he said, do you want to know how much the dealer was going to charge to diagnose that? I was like, well, how much? He said, $1,000 to diagnose it, and it's probably going to be $10,000 to repair it with all new convertible hydraulic cylinders and everything. And I was like, well, that's crazy. But, yeah, that's the norm. Now, you go to the dealerships, and it's $1,000 to diagnose something that's 20 years old or $500 if it's ten to 20 year old vehicle out of warranty vehicle. They're going to charge a lot of money.

Jimmy Purdy [00:43:31]:
Now.

Justin Zupko [00:43:31]:
Some of them are like, oh, check engine light. Yeah, 175. $200 to diagnose. But in reality, that's not going to end there. Usually it's like, okay, we need another hour, so we need another couple of. It's like, well, you said it was $200, and then that's tricky. And then if it has the extended warranty now they can't really go over that time. So that's where you find a lot of guys quitting the dealerships because you're getting more and more of them.

Justin Zupko [00:43:58]:
Hey, it's got a corroded ground under a shield that took them 5 hours to figure out. Sorry, we only got an hour because it has the in house extended warranty that the dealer owner gets paid a lot on, but tech gets nothing more than an hour for his 5 hours of diag time. And they quit. They quit. Frustrated, they leave or whatever. Absolutely not. So now it's like, why do we have a shortage of dealer technicians? And they do surveys about how happy you are at these dealers. And I was always honest.

Justin Zupko [00:44:28]:
I was like, hey, this is wrong. That's wrong. These extended warranties are wrong. If you're going to have them make sure you pay. And it's like healthcare, they won't pay past a certain amount. And you can't call a customer that spent all this money on a new car because they can't afford five grand a year for maintenance. And they bought the extended warranty so they can pay a certain amount every month for eight years. Includes everything they need.

Justin Zupko [00:44:56]:
And that's fine for everybody in that dealership except for the master technician that's trying to figure all this out in an hour. So it's just highly frustrating.

Jimmy Purdy [00:45:07]:
Right? Yeah. You brought up that point of the dealer was going to charge ten grand to replace everything. And on the surface, yeah, we're against that. That's just obviously a shotgun of parts. Right. Let's just replace everything and it'll work like a transmission. Same thing if it's not shifting, right? Yeah, it could be shift solenoid, could be just low on fluid, but if you put a new one in there, it's going to work usually. Right, but you get my point.

Jimmy Purdy [00:45:37]:
And I think that's where the dealership in particular is heading towards, because that's the only way these techs are getting paid. Is he going to spend 5 hours or 3 hours to figure out that that top just needed to be topped off with fluid and there was a leaky line. If it takes him 2 hours to do that, he only gets paid that hour. Or he could say, you know what, let's just say we need everything that's going to be a 20 hours job for me. I'm just going to quote that out. That's my diag. It needs everything, and I guarantee you that's going to fix it. And it just goes back to the point of, like, you can't not afford to pay for a diagnostic because that's what happens.

Jimmy Purdy [00:46:12]:
And if you've been going to the shop or going to a dealership or wherever you're going, and you believe what they say is gospel, and they don't take the time to diagnose a vehicle, and they're just throwing parts at it, throwing a transmission in it, throwing an engine in it, throwing a whole new convertible top in it. It's like when a lot of those items could have been repaired for a third of the price, right? With a little bit of diag time on it, it's like, that's so important, that's being grossly overlooked. It's like, yeah, it might cost you $300 to diagnose it, but the repair might only be a couple of. You're able to dive in and pinpoint what the issue is. Or you could replace all that and spend $5,000. So it just drives me nuts to hear that. And it happens all the time, too. We get vehicles in here and we do the same thing.

Jimmy Purdy [00:47:00]:
We diagnose, we fix the problem. Oh, man, you just saved me so much money that so and so, or with the wherever was going to charge me this much to fix it, and it's like I got a fault them for it, but I can't really, because I understand the back end of it and I understand what the techs are getting paid, and that's just what makes the most logical sense for them, because they're just not getting compensated for the time they should be. If it's under warranty and they can say the top is bad, well, then the warranty will pay out all that money to replace the whole top if it was under warranty or whatever. It's like crazy. I don't know if I'd call it incompetence. I think maybe some of it is incompetence, where they just don't know what to call out. So they're calling out everything. But maybe part of it, too, is they know exactly what it is, but they're just not going to get paid to diagnose it, replace it all.

Jimmy Purdy [00:47:50]:
That'll fix it.

Justin Zupko [00:47:53]:
Man. I came from one of the best independent shops for a decade, and then some of the best, what I think are the best to work for dealerships in the county for ten years. And I would say that the lube techs at dealers are there because either they just want a job or they want to learn something. So one in ten wants to move past lube changing. So, one, it used to be nine out of ten. Now it's like one or two out of ten actually want to progress and become better. And so you have even smaller pool to pull from. And now these guys are moving up slowly.

Justin Zupko [00:48:33]:
But to get to the point where you can pull in a car and say, hey, this convertible top isn't working on this vehicle. Okay, well, what do you do? You got to figure out how it works. Well, when does he do that? Well, he's got to read up the description, operation and protemand or something. Well, that's usually not enough. In other words, he needs years and years of just street knowledge acquired through touching cars, and eventually he'll realize that convertible top, it has seals that just naturally leak over time. Like floor jacks that jack up cars naturally. Some of that fluid goes past those seals. It's just like rings on a know.

Justin Zupko [00:49:23]:
That fluid just lost. It's slipped past the piston seals in that Porsche's hydraulic cylinders that open the top, close the top, just went past it over time. There's no excessive leak on any of these that I've dealt with, even Chrysler convertible tops. It's just natural leakage over time. Rarely is there an actual large enough leak where you should actually replace things, in my experience. And in that case. But how do you know that? There's no service bulletin that says, oh, it's probably normal leakage because no one really deals with convertible top that much. But, yeah, there's nobody in the dealership environment that can easily say, oh, yeah, we can just put fluid in that rather than replace it for all $10,000, just replace all that stuff.

Justin Zupko [00:50:15]:
Nobody has that street knowledge is what it really boils down to, because nobody's really that invested in their career.

Jimmy Purdy [00:50:25]:
Yeah, a little bit of that, and I think a little bit of common sense that we're lacking a lot in the industry, too. Some of us just. It's so technically driven right now to learn as much technical stuff as you can. But there's also a lot of common sense stuff that's like. And it's like the light bulb moment. Like, oh, I checked this and I checked this, and I'm analyzing that, and it's like, dude, what do you think it is? Well, I think it's okay. That's probably what it is. Then.

Jimmy Purdy [00:50:54]:
Sometimes it is just the gut check. Sometimes when you're dealing with it, it's like, sometimes just seat of your pants. What I think it is is it's probably this or whatever you're dealing with. It's like, okay, well, then we don't need to analyze and find these numbers. Like you said, we don't need to find a problem. If there's no problem, then there's no problem. It's like the DCTs and the Ford focuses, right? That's just how they shift. There is no fix for it.

Jimmy Purdy [00:51:22]:
It's normal operating. That's just how it is. You can't fix what's not broken using that. Common sense is like, that's huge, too. You got to have both. And I think, like you said, the common sense just comes from the street smarts and just the veterans have done it. And you've seen it over and over and over, and you're like, oh, that's normal. Oh, how do you know that it is? Trust me.

Jimmy Purdy [00:51:45]:
Trust me. It's fine. No one can teach you that overnight. No one can teach you that in five years. It takes decades to just have the confidence to know. Like, that's fine. I don't need to know a bolton. I don't need to read something about it.

Jimmy Purdy [00:52:00]:
That's just how it is.

Justin Zupko [00:52:04]:
My cousin owns a transmission shop in Fresno for 25 years, and I ask him car questions over the years, like, hey, what do you think about this misfire? What do you think about this scan tool? He's like, honestly, I don't know anything about cars. I'm like, what are you talking about? He's like, I just know how to rip a transmission apart and make it work when it's done. And I do transmissions, and that's it. And yeah, he can probably do the programming. Nowadays you kind of have to, like Nissan CVTs and stuff, know modules in the valve, but, like, he knows nothing else but transmissions. And that's what needs to happen again in this industry is we need to have a shop that does transmissions. We need to have a shop that does electrical. We need to have a shop that does drivability.

Justin Zupko [00:52:58]:
We need to have specialized german shop. And we have those shops. You have german auto and north county diesel and Switzerland and other places like that. Morin brothers, by the way, Morin brothers does the AdAs for most shops in this county. But, yeah, there's still no electrical. No, and that's what I'm wanting to become, really, is an electrical shop. But I can't pay the bills by just doing that because I'm a new company, so I have to do other things, too. I do lockout calls sometimes.

Justin Zupko [00:53:34]:
I mean, I'll do slim gems for insurance companies if I need the money.

Jimmy Purdy [00:53:40]:
Yeah, and that's what the problem is, the money. And then you go to smog shops, and they're doing transmission replacements, right? And they're doing differential rebuilds, and you're sitting back and you're holding back, and you're like, okay, I'm just going to spit. I mean, that's how I started, was a transmission specialist. That's what I was rebuilding transmissions. And it's just over the years, you get slow and you're trying to pull in this transmission, and it's like, dude, I need work. And then you get cars coming in with misfire, and they think their transmission is slipping. I couldn't tell you how many of those I turned away, like, no, you have a misfire. Oh, no, I just came from a shop, and they said, it's the transmission.

Jimmy Purdy [00:54:17]:
I'm like, it's a misfire. Get in the car with me. Let me show you. Watch a misfire. See, every time that little number keeps going up and you're filling the transmission slip. Yeah, it's a misfire. And then you send it away. You start looking at the end of the month, like, if I would have just fixed that.

Jimmy Purdy [00:54:33]:
That's money. And so you just start going down that path. Beggars can't be choosers. So you just start taking in what you can take in to keep the finances rolling. And before you know it, it's like half your business now is transmissions and the other half is auto repair, and that's putting more money in the bank, and everyone's just replacing transmissions. And then you look at the cost of the remanufacturers versus what I can rebuild it for. Wow. I'm not really saving anybody any money, so it's just what happens.

Jimmy Purdy [00:55:05]:
It's the evolution. But you're right, it would be a totally different industry if we went back to how it was. You had your transmission guys, you have your different specialized areas. And like with Adas, it's like the same thing. But how many of these guys, you said all the lights, Christmas trees on these cars now, right? How many of these people are going to want to fix their ADas problems? So if you're an AdAs specialty shop, are you really going to be busy? Is that really going to be something people are coming to you specifically for? Especially when any other general auto shop can go buy that calibrator and hire some kid and say, hey, just make sure it's in the arrows, just like an alignment, right? Just make sure it's in the green and you're good to go. It's like, how much variance is there going to be? And is anybody even going to notice? Does anyone ever say, oh, man, after you aligned it, my car rides so much better? No, they might be like, hey, my tires last like 10,000 miles more. Probably not. They're not noticing.

Jimmy Purdy [00:56:04]:
They just, when it needs tires, they go get tires. Who calculates how many miles they're getting out of their set of tires? And so it's just so much variance there that it's so hard to have specialized.

Justin Zupko [00:56:14]:
The other thing you got to realize about adas, if you want to get into that, and I really try and avoid adas, but there's dynamic adas, like Chrysler products. A lot of their ADAS calibration is done dynamically with the scan tool routine. So if you do a front camera and a ram that has full surround view camera, so you see the top view of your car when you back up in your nice ram truck, that front camera needs to be calibrated if it's bent off the grille or it has a new camera. And so you'll see that that's a dynamic drive it, make a left, make a right, go 2 miles an hour. Scan tool tells you what to do as you're driving it. There's no board involved, but then you have wagoneers that have sensors that need to be used aboard and lasers and stuff. That's a static adas, I'll call it. Well, that requires a lot of setup time.

Justin Zupko [00:57:07]:
And the problem with that is, if you do it wrong, if that car gets an accident, more and more insurance companies are going to the people that calibrated it last and saying, hey, let's see your paperwork. Did you document that you did that one procedure? And that's going to be more and more of people, I think, lawyers getting involved, and they're like, oh, well, let's sue the dealership because they didn't do a calibration when they had that grill off to the radiator. Maybe it's independent that did it. So more of these sensors that you have, it's a big reason why Tesla doesn't like selling parts to independent shops, because they want to make sure everything is calibrated. But more and more, you're seeing people getting sued as shop owners because their guy didn't calibrate that front camera on that radiator job. That's just something to think about. Like it's going to get crazy with these semi autonomous cars.

Jimmy Purdy [00:58:07]:
Yeah. Especially when you get attorneys involved, because as we all know, there's the procedure way of doing it and then there's the common sense way of doing it. Right? And if you find a way to calibrate something, or you say, like, for example, the alignment. Yeah, there's the procedural way, but there's some of those steps that may or may not get overlooked. But at the end of the day, you're just trying to get the thing aligned. You're just trying to get everything set to where it needs to be set right. And so they're just going to be digging through the paperwork. Oh, look, you didn't do step three.

Jimmy Purdy [00:58:39]:
That's stupid. No one does that, right? Nobody does that step. You don't need to. No, you didn't do it. So now that kind of stuff there is what the problem is going to be. And I think not having it mandated as a safety item yet, I think that's probably going to give a little bit of leeway there. But as soon as it's mandated as a safety item in a vehicle, that's just when it's all going to go. I don't know if it's a good idea to get into it or stay out of it.

Jimmy Purdy [00:59:06]:
It's like the smog program. Like I got out of the smog program. I don't want anything to do with those people. Like the amount of responsibility that they mount on you for the, like, no, I'm good. For $50 a car and no, I'm good. I don't need the bureaucracy in my shop.

Justin Zupko [00:59:19]:
You're a bottom of repair. They have the referee. So if your monitor isn't sitting on your vehicle, your diesel ram truck, say it's a knox monitor, and you're like, okay, well, here's a checklist that needs to go with the customer to that dealership. And basically it's given the dealership rights to spend thousands of dollars on parts because one of the things that they want done is open a star case. Well, starcase back to the technical assistance side of dealerships. They're going to say, well, check these temp sensors. Do this, clean that, wiggle this, tighten that, and next thing you know, there goes $5,000 just to see if you can set a monitor. And really what had to happen is all they had to do was go in there and look at the data in the OBD two mode nine or ten.

Justin Zupko [01:00:09]:
And it would show that the Nox monitor has never set in the life of the vehicle, meaning that there's a software anomaly or it's got a tune, and it probably just needs to be updated again, reflashed, over, flashed. And that type of stuff happens more and more on these diesels, but nobody knows to look there yet because nobody's like, the technical writers for dealerships are just guys like you and me. They're like, hey, what should step one be, Mr. Engineer car company on this misfire code? Oh, we'll check this. All right, well, what do I write next? They're just getting orders from somebody in a car company's department that thinks they know how they should diagnose their product. That doesn't mean that's a logical avenue to. So anyways, right?

Jimmy Purdy [01:01:05]:
Yeah, they try to keep it as simple as possible for themselves.

Justin Zupko [01:01:09]:
Anyway, most troubleshoots on Chryslers is like, oh, you have a map sensor circuit, high code. Disconnect both ends. Engine, computer end and sensor end. Om out circuits, check for cross shorts. Check for this, check for that. None of it says back probe it. Check for 5 volts, check for signal ground, back probed, and check signal back probe. Because now your sensor has got a complete circuit.

Justin Zupko [01:01:35]:
Rarely does it say anything logical in there. So it's wasting 2 hours of time to get to all this stuff. And then rather than the logical steps, there's no logic in most of those trouble charts. It's usually some engineer talking to a technical writer, telling him what to write, and then they think it makes sense, but they're not the ones that actually diagnose.

Jimmy Purdy [01:02:00]:
Yeah, I feel like it's too hard for them to actually be able to write that out, just like the way you had just mentioned it. Now, why would it be so hard to do that? Why would it be so hard to check reference voltage? Why would it be so hard to check the signal output and actually put what the signal output is supposed to be at sea level versus whatever. What am I looking for? What's my end goal here? So I'm just testing the resistance of the wire and the harness. Oh, get real.

Justin Zupko [01:02:35]:
That's like having your crystal. That doesn't prove anything work. And then disconnect the extension cord in between and go to the hardware store and buy a meter and then plug the meter in to check each end for continuity rather than, hey, maybe there's a cut in the wire or bulb out. I don't know.

Jimmy Purdy [01:02:54]:
Yeah, the flowcharts. And it is gospel for most to go through there and at least check that. It's a good place to start. But how many problems do you actually find going through a flowchart, especially with the Chrysler stuff? No, it doesn't make any damn sense. I mean, don't even look at the scan tool. You can put that in the flowchart. Like, check scan tool data. You should see at sea level, so many inches of vacuum at least give something.

Jimmy Purdy [01:03:22]:
But most of us just jump on YouTube, because that's the only way you can find some logical information. Someone's uploaded it somewhere, and at least now we have some sort of frame of reference. Like, okay, well, the scan tool data looks good, or it doesn't. Now we know what our problem is. We can go from there, but when it comes to the diagnostics of it, that's why I hate when people say that we're stonewalling or you're putting too much information out there. It's like, you can't have too much information out there. You could skip to the end of the video and just replace the part that the person in the video replaced. That fixed that problem, but I guarantee that 90% of the time, that's not going to fix the problem, and you've totally missed everything.

Jimmy Purdy [01:04:02]:
I'm sure you watch Paul Danner scanner. Danner. And so I talked with him about the same thing. It was like, you're missing the point. If you're skipping to the end of the video, you're missing the whole point of the content. He's showing you how the system is operating so that you can use that reference for your repair, not because you have that exact same vehicle with that exact same code. Drives me nuts. You're missing the point.

Jimmy Purdy [01:04:27]:
He's, like, showing you in real time, in real world, the functions of that circuit or the system, and that way you can apply it correctly.

Justin Zupko [01:04:35]:
Do you ever watch that?

Jimmy Purdy [01:04:36]:
Skip to the end and replace that part?

Justin Zupko [01:04:40]:
He's on TikTok, so I try and avoid as much TikTok as I possibly can. But about a year ago, I got on there, and I quickly realized there's great information from other technicians and shop owners. But this guy is a mobile tech, and I think, I don't know, east coast somewhere. And he goes around, he explains, like, hey, you have a Subaru, and it has whatever code. And he goes through and looks at the data like, hey, look at the fuel trim here. And this is why I think it wasn't. He's really good at explaining in simple ways how important looking at your data is. Because I can't tell you how many times, working wherever I worked, that if I know, let's say like a barrow sensor reading, if I know on a Ford what a normal barrow Hertz is, and then I get in a car at sea level and it's off, that's one of the things I look at, if it's a driability issue in any way, is like I always, on a Ford, I go at a barrel hertz.

Justin Zupko [01:05:44]:
You learn things. And what data is very important to look at based on the complaint of the customer. If it's fuel economy drivability, you want to look at fuel trims, you want to look at Barrow, you want to look at loads, and then you just really kind of go from there. But if you give somebody a no trouble code, poor fuel economy complaint in your shop, it's like, you better make sure that they know how to understand every part of that data. Because there's so much data in today's cars, there's so much engine data. I can't explain even some of it. Like, I had Toyota the other day, I'm like, I don't know what that acronym even means. I could find nothing on it, but it had to do with load.

Justin Zupko [01:06:29]:
Like, there was like five different pids of load values on this Toyota. And I'm like, I don't know what that. And it was in the freeze frame. And little side note, Toyota is really good about timestamping their freeze frame. So if you have a Toyota tech stream, you can get a text stream for not too much money. And you can go in there and you can look at the timestamp freeze frame. It's beyond what your autelor snap on will do. And it gives you a lot of exact time of day.

Justin Zupko [01:07:01]:
It set the code, the date, somehow it ties in with the radio. So it knows all kinds of information that's really valuable for freeze frame. Beyond freeze frame.

Jimmy Purdy [01:07:16]:
Yeah. Knowing how to get all that kind of information is what's the most important part, though. And then knowing what you're looking at. Still guys out there that don't know what an two sensor, what's rich and what's lean, and then beyond that, again, the air fuel ratio sensors. And if you're trying to mess with a drivability issue and you don't know what your two sensors are supposed to be doing, you just need to put the scan tool away and walk. Put it down and walk away. But the more learnings, the better. But still learn some of the basics.

Jimmy Purdy [01:07:51]:
And going through the smog program taught me a lot of that, but that's missing a lot too, is looking through that stuff. I think filling that space with mobile texts that are into that high level diag stuff is obviously kind of the wave of the future, like I said. So I think there's definitely high hopes for you trying to do for sure.

Justin Zupko [01:08:11]:
That it works out. And if not, I had a recently retired mechanic. He's like, yeah, I'm driving trucks around to construction sites with a class A license and making $80 an hour. I'm like, yeah, screw you. That just goes to show you guys can climb poles for PG and E and get $150 an hour after 8 hours of overtime and they're doing all this crazy stuff. But a lot of it is easier than what we do for a living. A lot of it. We only have so much money that we can get out of a customer.

Justin Zupko [01:08:48]:
And so we can only pay ourselves so much as shop owners because there's only so much money to be had without lying to people, without ripping people off. And in this county you do that, you're going to close down in two years because people talk. Thank God it's a small county and we have some great shop owners and some really honest shop owners. I can say that about every shop I've been to. But there is only so much money to be had. And so it's a real tricky situation to try and pay somebody really well. When guys are working, driving trucks around at $75 an hour, it's like, how do you compete with that? That's super difficult.

Jimmy Purdy [01:09:35]:
Yes. That is the biggest problem we deal with trying to hire someone and for me to pay them, say, 60 or 70 an hour and workers cost $90 an hour after taxes. And to have the labor rate at 100 and 5161. Hundred and 70, that's still not enough. To pay someone that kind of money. Your labor rate has got to be over $200 an hour. It's just hard to justify that. Like you said, you can't just keep adding more money onto your labor rate to make up for that.

Jimmy Purdy [01:10:08]:
You could add it onto your parts. Sure, you can start marking your parts up, but you start adding 70, 80% markup on your parts. People can look online, they can see like, go down the part store. When you start selling parts over list price, they're not going to pay for it. They're going to find a cheaper alternative for it. It's a tough situation. I don't know. I don't know what the future holds, but we just got to keep moving forward.

Jimmy Purdy [01:10:33]:
And I guess the main thing is, do you want to drive a truck or do you want to fix cars? Because realistically, it's not really all about the money. You got to make a living. You got to pay your bills. But I've been out of the industry and came back. There's multiple guys that have done the same thing, and girls, right. You get out, you do something else for the money, and you just realize, man, I just don't want to do this. I want to go back and fix cars. And so part of it is like, you know what? If you like what you do and you're paid a little less, that might be the way to go, but being in California, it's more about the money right now.

Jimmy Purdy [01:11:10]:
Yeah. What we do, the rent is not going down.

Justin Zupko [01:11:16]:
Something that should be. We should be thanked a lot for. Every mechanic should be thanked a lot for what they do. Because, you know, the days of guys having a mortgage and a new car payment and their wife not working as a mechanic at a dealership, those days are just gone completely. I can't speak for independence, but the guys that are making money at the dealers is one guy per dealership in this county that's making over $100,000 a year, and the rest are just, like, at $50,000 a year income. And they're like, okay, well, here's a can bus issue. Go ahead and spend a week on it because we're not paying you really all that much money. But that guy making 150 grand doing transmission overhauls in way quick time because he's done a bazillion of them.

Justin Zupko [01:12:02]:
Yeah, he's making a lot of money, as he should be because he's gotten that good at it. But all the other guys are like, well, I'm not really ever going to get to the transmission work because he's not teaching me anything. And so I guess I'll figure out these random network issues or random misfire issues, but they don't have the foundation to even accurately diagnose it, unfortunately. Yeah.

Jimmy Purdy [01:12:27]:
They just get lucky most of the time, and then when a problem comes up, they don't know what to do. Yeah.

Justin Zupko [01:12:34]:
All right.

Jimmy Purdy [01:12:34]:
On, man. Well, another shout out. Your YouTube channel.

Justin Zupko [01:12:41]:
And then the name of your shop, mobile mechanic.

Jimmy Purdy [01:12:48]:
And then. I don't think I ever did the introduction.

Justin Zupko [01:12:50]:
Yeah, it's just first and last name.

Jimmy Purdy [01:12:54]:
Yeah. Cool. And you're located right here, local? California?

Justin Zupko [01:13:01]:
Los Angeles, right? Yeah. But, yeah, I live in Morrow Bay, and I try and work out of south county. Well, central county so San Luis, Morrow Bay los osas I don't like driving up the I drove to Paso for three years and driving up the 41 kind of scares me a lot of accidents so trying to avoid it.

Jimmy Purdy [01:13:23]:
Yeah, I don't blame you. Well I appreciate you coming. I can tribute a lot of good information. I'm glad you reached out because I was a little rough with you at first because I had so many people on my job post.

Justin Zupko [01:13:39]:
Some people talk crap and I was just like hey. Mainly I was like Eric Failey talks a lot of good things. He says a lot of good things about you. And so I said hey, let these shop owners know I'm out there. If they ever get a problem car and they're just too busy to diagnose it, I can give it a shot. Or if they want to borrow scan tools like I'm not against for a decent price, like somebody can use a tech stream or something or maybe I can teach a class. I don't know. But yeah.

Justin Zupko [01:14:09]:
So I just saw a post on your sorry. I posted on a job blessing that worked.

Jimmy Purdy [01:14:14]:
It worked out. Bye.