The Gearbox Podcast

Jimmy Purdy [00:00:00]:
Foreign. My name is Jimmy Purdy, shop owner, master tech, transmission builder and the host of the Gearbox podcast. Here I talk with new and seasoned shop owners as well as industry professionals about day to day operations within their own shops and all the failures and successes that come along the way, from what grinds your gears to having to shift gears in the automotive industry. This is the Gearbox podcast for knowing me, for, I don't know, a collective of an hour of time we've communicated with each other in the past year.

Jim Cokonis [00:00:46]:
Yeah.

Jimmy Purdy [00:00:47]:
I guess, you know, fairly quickly. Right. When you, when you get to talking.

Jim Cokonis [00:00:50]:
To somebody, trust your instincts.

Jimmy Purdy [00:00:53]:
Yeah, a little bit.

Jim Cokonis [00:00:54]:
You know, and when you hear little rumors that people have, you know, sometimes you'll hear something like somebody forgoes a sponsorship with ease because they refuse to do something that's outside of their comfort zone. I can appreciate that. Right. Yeah, because it's, it's about the, it's about the passion and it's about the intent and, and your view. And that's, you know, to me, that's integrity, I guess.

Jimmy Purdy [00:01:34]:
You know, that's the, the kind of. The focus that I wanted to talk to you about is, is you're definitely a deep thinker, right. You have a, a lot of insight that obviously comes from a place of a lot of thought. And I think that's, that, that's missing from a lot of other people. Not a lot, but we definitely there, there's ideas that, that are kind of like pop flies. Right. Like, we all get ideas and they kind of, they're like flyers. Right.

Jimmy Purdy [00:01:59]:
This is like a fleeting thought. And you, you, yours always comes from a place of really deep insight. And you, and you have to. It makes you think about it for a minute, like, oh, okay, hold on a second. Seems like you spent a little bit of time thinking about this before you decided to open your mouth, which is always nice.

Jim Cokonis [00:02:16]:
Did you see the, the post that I made about being. If you want to change yourself in the industry, be a polymath?

Jimmy Purdy [00:02:23]:
Yes.

Jim Cokonis [00:02:26]:
Yeah. I learned that term yesterday doing some research on something. I'd never heard it described that way.

Jimmy Purdy [00:02:33]:
I've not heard it that way either. That, I mean, you threw me off with that one.

Jim Cokonis [00:02:37]:
Yeah. And then, you know, having a Greek mother who was raised in Greece and could, could read and write ancient Greek as well. So a lot of the old original root words and things like that, you know, that's. That and Ancient Latin is where the history comes from. And then, and then one person posted on there that that Renaissance man came to mind. And in the research I was doing, the, the Renaissance man was. That term was a nod to the concept of learning a lot of different things and not trying to be an expert in all of them. And then somebody else brought up the whole jack of all trades, master of none.

Jim Cokonis [00:03:27]:
Did you see what the end of that quote is?

Jimmy Purdy [00:03:30]:
Right.

Jim Cokonis [00:03:31]:
But better than master of one.

Jimmy Purdy [00:03:34]:
Right.

Jim Cokonis [00:03:35]:
Because if you focus on only one thing, you get tunnel vision. So I guess I've always been curious. I've always liked to learn about all kinds of stuff and, and yeah, if, if I have a, if I have a flaw, it's the potential for analysis paralysis.

Jimmy Purdy [00:03:57]:
Yeah. And it goes back to like having all your eggs in one basket. Right. Or, or staying in your lane. And it's like the, it's such a difficult, especially when you're, when you're new in any business. But in the automotive industry, right. Like do you just go all in with all your eggs in one basket or you just diversify and try to bring. And I think that's a struggle for me.

Jimmy Purdy [00:04:20]:
Right. I think it's a struggle in the first few years because you're trying to obviously keep car count out, you're trying to keep people coming in, but if you only focus on one aspect, it's really narrowing your down and it gets kind of scary, right. Where you're like, okay, maybe I should bring in that car that I normally wouldn't because I'm slow or so it's, it's a difficult thought process but it really gets down to like the, that deep level that I was just talking about where you know, I really need to know a little bit of everything, especially as an owner operator. Right. You need to be marketing, you need to be, you need to be out on the floor. I don't know how the guys do it that aren't technically blessed. I guess we'll put it that way. They don't know how to fix the cars.

Jimmy Purdy [00:05:06]:
I don't know how you run a shop without knowing how to actually actively work on the vehicles. But to have a little bit of touch of all that stuff and be able to oversight every part of the business, I feel like is, is, is an important part of it.

Jim Cokonis [00:05:21]:
You know, there boy, you're going to end up getting into just so many different areas with this free ranging conversation. The, the common wisdom is that I don't need anybody that understands what's going on with the car. I need salespeople, I need, I need people with good communication skills.

Jimmy Purdy [00:05:47]:
I can appreciate that.

Jim Cokonis [00:05:48]:
And yet then I see Posts online, where, you know, here's a service, a service advisor that wants some tool to be able to check and verify what their texts are telling them. Okay, what's going on there? Right. Does she not. Does she not trust the technicians and what they're saying? Or is she not confident in her understanding what is it? But there's something there. And so, you know, the risk is that the service advisor could try to do the job that really is the tech's job. And from an efficiency standpoint and from a customer communication standpoint, that creates issues. Oh, I scan the car real quick and it's got a small evap code and they go out and they screw the gas cap tighter and turn it off and say, you know, see what happens, see if it comes back. What? And, and so I get where that, that thought process comes from.

Jim Cokonis [00:06:51]:
But then you get into, you know, the story of Toyota. Toyota has always been very big on culture, and they grow from within. And I knew parts companies like this, drivers that were now district managers 25 years later, and they understand the entire cycle of the business, from putting the parts on the shelf to taking them to the customer, to ordering to whatever. And those companies were wildly successful. And then they're sold to giant corporate entities that bring in, you know, somebody who has the expertise in running a potato chip factory, and they completely blow it up. So can you manage something that you know nothing about? And Toyota had this thing where when they would go open a new facility or something like that, they would start with hundreds and hundreds of people that are from within the organization and they would hire in and train in people. And the reason they did that was because in the, in the realm of culture, it seems that culture is affected to some extent by majority. And if you have the majority of people that understand and live the culture, those that are brought in, adapt to the culture you want.

Jim Cokonis [00:08:17]:
But if you bring in a whole bunch of people and you only have a minority of people who understand the culture, now, they can shift your culture. And when Toyota got enamored with the concept of becoming the largest automaker, they partook in some growth that didn't follow their tried and true model, and they had to recover from that. So it's just, it's. It's fascinating when you talk about that. It's. That's a huge topic on its own.

Jimmy Purdy [00:08:51]:
That's true. Yeah. I mean, it dives deep. But looking back at like the mentality part of it or like trying to keep the culture and I mean, it's all mindset you know, I feel like it's the hardest thing and the most missed thing. Right. I did a lot of. So at Apex here in the last, the last week, did talk to a lot of other coaches and different companies about, you know, different things. One of the thing that really, really sparked my interest was the, the tech coaching, the technician coaching and not technician training, technician coaching, you know, and, and, and looking at the technicians as people, you know, instead of just productivity.

Jimmy Purdy [00:09:34]:
Right.

Jim Cokonis [00:09:35]:
Chattel.

Jimmy Purdy [00:09:36]:
Right, right. And it's like, yeah, we can put us in the back or put them in the back and, and let them do their thing and put the, Just put the work out and put all your effort and energy in the sales side and making sure the sales process is good. And it needs to be. But it needs to be both. Right. But it was just interesting to give them an outlet or, or therapy, really, in a sense. But it really just. The more I think about it and I, I.

Jimmy Purdy [00:10:00]:
We talked before we came on about the post about me going to another shop and trying to feel that different culture. And I, and I hated, like, I thought about that for way too long because it's like, man, it just looks like I'm trying to go steal someone's secret. Right. Is what I said. It's like, that's not like, the point of it. So I'm just gonna post it and then I'll just take it from there. Cause I don't want to explain in a small post what I'm like. Cause the one thing most people do when they're trying to steal something is say they're not trying to steal something.

Jimmy Purdy [00:10:29]:
I'm not gonna start with the post like, hey, I'm not looking to take your secrets. But it's like, just to psychologically or like, try to get into that mindset of like, what does that feel like? Cause there's a feeling, right, that's really, really hard to explain. When you go into any business where everybody is treated correctly, like chick fil. A. A little culty now, but you know, when you go there and everyone's like, looks genuinely happy, like they say my pleasure without it sounding forced. It's like, wow. It actually, it actually seems like everybody's enjoying themselves being here. And it's just a feeling that you can't really describe.

Jim Cokonis [00:11:04]:
There. I saw a. A video of Simon's neck and he was in a. In a hotel and he walked up to one of the baristas and he was getting his coffee, and he asked him, he says, how do you like your job? And he said, the kid didn't even miss a beat. And he said, I love my job. And he's like, explain to me why. He says, when I'm working here, throughout the day, I have managers that come by and ask how I'm doing and see if there's anything they can do to make my job easier. He said, and they genuinely care that I've got everything I need to take care of my customers.

Jim Cokonis [00:11:40]:
He said, I love working here. And then he said, I also work in another hotel, which he didn't name down the street. And he says there, all the managers do is walk around and try and catch us doing something wrong. And he said, there, I just collect my paycheck, keep my head down, and go home. And that's, that's kind of exactly what you're talking about, the difference between, you know, this is a human. And the type of management of people generally want to do a good job. And how do I remove barriers to them doing that? And if I can knock those barriers down and make it easier to do right than wrong, the performance will escalate.

Jimmy Purdy [00:12:23]:
Yeah. Without seeing it, it's hard to believe it. I mean, we can all understand it and get behind it, but it's just one of those. Of those nuances, right? Do you think because we are either just people or because we're in the automotive industry, we're constantly looking for something wrong? I, I just feel like, like, for, for me, like, it's, it's a, it's like, it's like the social media high or whatever you get, right? Like the. What's the word for it? You know, when you're getting the dopamine, dopamine rush, right? You're constantly looking for that hit. And when I have a vehicle come in for the last 10, 15 years and I find what the problem is, I'm rewarded, right? And I'm just like, I don't know the difference. Right. So when I find something wrong in the processes of the business or something that employees doing wrong, it's like that hit a dopamine because I found the problem, you know, and do you think that breeds like a negative kind of like that negative culture doing that?

Jim Cokonis [00:13:25]:
You know, you talk about coaching technicians and for, for at least a couple of decades, I've, I've recognized that. And I said, you know, you get in a room full of technicians and they're, you know, I complain, therefore I am, and they're really good at pointing out everything that's wrong. You know, I, I won't. I Won't name names, but. But a mutual person we both know is very good at this. And I have coached technicians over the years that this is what we do. We look for what's wrong. Why did the engineer build it like that? Look at how this is installed.

Jim Cokonis [00:14:06]:
Well, that's crazy. That'll never work. Look at this. This is broken. And that's what we do. And it can make us very negative people, because that's what we focus on. And we can tend to do it with our friends and family, too. And so what I told them was one of the things that I did learn in my reading and study about sales and people and personality is when my job is out front and I'm talking with a customer, when I'm coaching somebody, I want to start off with what's good, what's right.

Jim Cokonis [00:14:48]:
Your brakes are in really good condition, but your tires are showing cords, right? So. So it's that. It's that balance of looking for what's right and acknowledging what's wrong. Because if you just hit somebody with, you know, oh, the. Here I'm gonna go. The 300 rule. We got to document everything and estimate it all and hit them with, boom. Here's all the stuff that needs your money.

Jim Cokonis [00:15:16]:
That may not, for some people, be the best way to communicate with them.

Jimmy Purdy [00:15:21]:
So I think using that, too, can really change perspective of a lot of not just technicians, but. But a lot of people. Right. Like I said, I don't know if that's just something, because we were. We've been rewarded in that sense. Right? We've had that positive affirmation of, if you find something wrong, here's your paycheck. And that's all we do all week long, right? Like, keep finding the wrong stuff, Keep finding the bad stuff, and. And that just spills over into personal life.

Jimmy Purdy [00:15:50]:
And, yeah, business is personal, right? Like, it's. It's so hard to draw the line and. And spend all day looking for what's wrong and go home and not keep doing that same thing, right? On the mindset side, and I think finding more positive stuff. Just as you said, your brakes are good, but your tires are bad. One of the things that's really circulating around right now is taking, you know, three or four pictures of good parts on the vehicle. And technicians are like, what are you talking about? I'm not. Why would I take pictures of what's right? I'm looking for what's wrong. And I think that question was, what really sparked my interest is like, why wouldn't you want to take pictures of something good of the vehicle.

Jimmy Purdy [00:16:27]:
Right? Like. Well, because they're, they've been trained to find what's bad. We've all have been. Right. Same with customers that walk through the front door. We're all just looking for the ones that we can fire. Right? And then it's like, and, and you see it all the time on, on online, too, right? Like, oh, I got to fire a customer today. It's like, it's almost rewarding, right? Because, oh, I found the problem.

Jimmy Purdy [00:16:47]:
I found something bad. And, and I should be rewarded for, for firing this customer. Like, well, there's no other way to do that. There's. You couldn't have, like, communicated better. And sure, there's probably a very small percentage that needs to maybe go somewhere else. But why. What is it that's so appalling that you have to say, this isn't my customer, right.

Jimmy Purdy [00:17:10]:
Or this isn't. I don't know. It's. It's difficult without knowing the situation, but it still goes back to that fundamental level of trying to find a problem and trying to get rid of it and then being rewarded for that. Right.

Jim Cokonis [00:17:22]:
Well, and you'll, and you've noticed. I know if you, if you read any of the, the conversations, there are some people who will point out or ask questions. That's the one I love. They will ask questions because they have a curiosity, well, how did you present it? How was the process handled and all those things? And they've respectfully submitted that you set yourself up for that angry customer that you fired because of how you do things. And that's, that's a hard pill to swallow for some folks, and you can see the, the, the pushback on it. But then there's others that, you know, how dare you question this? You know, everybody knows that this is reality. And these customers just are so entitled. And I'm like, no, you're asking them to spend money, and perhaps you haven't, perhaps you haven't presented the value to them.

Jim Cokonis [00:18:20]:
Right. And to go back to your comment, Jimmy, of Are we really that way? Think about how many people in this. I don't want to call it an industry because industries have standards and we really don't. And I'm stealing that line from a, a friend of mine who passed away by the name of Tony Amoroso, Anthony Amoroso. He used to go by Guido because he looked like Father Guido Sardochi. He used to make that comment all the time back in the IATN days. We're not an industry because Industries have standards. But, but think of how many people are in this that have never had any of the additional training, the communication skills, the public speaking, the, they haven't developed the, the rounding.

Jim Cokonis [00:19:20]:
And that's why you make that comment about coaching technicians and helping the person, not just the technical skill. And I think that's kind of fascinating. Maybe more of that helps change the industry.

Jimmy Purdy [00:19:38]:
Yeah. Focus it on more of a career than a job really. And, and I mean, not to get so deep into the, the new age woo woo stuff, but I mean it really is though, right? I mean we have so many more stimuli now going on in our day and age. Right. There is a lot more mental capacity that's required than, than there used to be. Right. We have people just ready and willing to, to troll you on the Internet to post stuff to, to come after you negative reviews. Right.

Jimmy Purdy [00:20:14]:
Trying to put something positive on the Internet. And you got people that just want to say something negative about it. There's so much more of that going on than there ever has been. And so looking at the mindset and, and especially with the sales side, I mean, and you brought up, you know, service advisor training and sales training and I think that could be also removed and replaced with just basically therapy. Right. For salespeople. I mean, when you got someone up front that's dealing with that many people every day, training a sales process is one thing, but how do they vent? How do they. You know, that's a tough job, man, and it just kind of encapsulates everything.

Jimmy Purdy [00:20:57]:
But the one thing that was, was really intriguing to me is, is instead of doing so much technical training about the vehicle. The vehicle, the vehicle. Like, what about when they go home and they just got beat up all day and they got three diags wrong and their managers are like, hey man, you've only put four hours of, of work in today, you better step it up tomorrow. Like that's a really negative play. And then you're sitting under the hood of a car and your head's down for eight hours. You're not talking to anybody. Right. You're just in your own mind all day long.

Jimmy Purdy [00:21:26]:
A dangerous place to be for me anyway. And so that, that, it was def. Definitely intriguing to me as well. Like that that is a missed opportunity for sure.

Jim Cokonis [00:21:43]:
So I, I've got a question for you if you don't mind.

Jimmy Purdy [00:21:46]:
I love questions.

Jim Cokonis [00:21:50]:
What do you think? I, I don't want to call anybody out by name, but there's, there's, there's people that I've been Having conversations with. And there's a lot of, a lot of interest in different things. One of them I will call out because they've kind of, they've put themselves out there. Do you remember the whole road to great technicians thing about road to great. The road to great technicians was kind of. Yeah, kind of a push a few years back and it had. Oh, it had Chris Chesney out there talking about it on a regular basis. And, and I think Johnny Cypher was involved in some of it.

Jim Cokonis [00:22:34]:
And the concept was competency based testing of technicians. So not just a paper test, not just a participation certificate. I attended this class and I get a certificate to put on the wall. But actually like aircraft mechanic or somebody where you have to take a written exam in the area you're looking for certification. And if you pass that, then you go to, you may be asked to demonstrate any of these 10 things that are within your area of expertise. And you have to demonstrate that you can actually do them live. So you demonstrate the competency beyond just the knowledge. And the idea was that that will produce great technicians.

Jim Cokonis [00:23:34]:
Had you ever heard of that?

Jimmy Purdy [00:23:35]:
I. Nope.

Jim Cokonis [00:23:37]:
Okay. So I don't know what's ever happened to it. It's kind of gone away. My question with that, because I'm always coming at things from a different angle was what is. If I do that? I think it's awesome. If I did that, what does a shop have to do to be qualified to put my certificate on their wall?

Jimmy Purdy [00:23:59]:
Oh, that's a good question.

Jim Cokonis [00:24:01]:
Okay. And so again, this is me talking. This is nobody else's opinion. This is just me. I asked that question and I always got, I always got crickets because to me, if I go through that and I demonstrate the, the proficiency and the knowledge to do something the way it's supposed to be done, and then I go to work at a shop that puts my certificate on the wall and their process and their culture doesn't allow me to do things the way I'm trained and know how to do it. Then does that certificate really have value? And so now we've got, now we've got Dave Machholz, who has started that AvTech program of competency based education for driver assist systems and EVs. And he's actually been joined by one of the people from training from Toyota, who retired from Toyota and joined his effort. So, so I guess my question becomes, where, where is certification and training going? And, and where, where do we go from here? Because if somebody scored 73% average on a 1 through a 8 what, what are, what are they called?

Jimmy Purdy [00:25:39]:
Oh, your master tech.

Jim Cokonis [00:25:41]:
Huh. And if somebody scored 95% average on those tests, what.

Jimmy Purdy [00:25:46]:
All the same.

Jim Cokonis [00:25:48]:
All the same. There's no differentiators, right? Should there be.

Jimmy Purdy [00:25:54]:
For asc? That's a tough. That is a tough question, right? Because there has to be a benchmark. So. And I get what ASC did, right? They lowered the bar to obviously increase the odds, right? Because the more, the more positive affirmation you give to anyone, the more they're going to want to stick it out. And when you go to, in quotes, technician shortage going on and, and you're getting guys that are feeling dejected, right? There's like, I can't pass this test, so I must not be, you know, I, I don't find something else to do. H Vac doesn't, doesn't test me anything. I'll go to work for H Vac. Right? It pays about the same.

Jimmy Purdy [00:26:33]:
I don't, I don't have to be degraded because I couldn't pass the test. So I guess I'm getting off rails a little bit. But that testing process, I understand why they lowered that entry, right? Make it a little lower, make it a little easier and get everybody in. I don't look at it that way, and you probably don't either. And it's probably a lot that kind of went through the, the tougher side of the auto industry, where I think it should be 85, 90%. I think they should just raise the bar instead of giving it different levels. You know, just make the, make the, the test, make the passing criteria higher. It needs to be 85, needs to be 90.

Jimmy Purdy [00:27:11]:
And maybe, maybe on your point, you could be like a, maybe a minor or like an, I don't know, not a master technician, but you could probably come up with something creative that says, yeah, you're proficient in all areas, but you're only at an intermediate level instead of saying, everybody's a master. But I think that just. Too many. There's too many. Too many grays.

Jim Cokonis [00:27:30]:
Well, all right, let me, let me push back and let me, let me throw a concept at you that is starting to float around. There's some interesting conversations that are happening, but here, here's the conversation. Don't change it. Don't make it harder. You're talking about, you know, I'm trying to tie this together. You're talking about coaching people holistically. All right? There's obviously a bunch of people who have passed the tests. Some of them take a few rounds at it.

Jim Cokonis [00:27:58]:
But they pass it. Right? You don't need to make it harder. Leave that where it stands. But you want to motivate people to improve themselves in all areas. Right? That would be part of coaching someone. And so what if there became a prestige that says, hey, you know, your average score or a score on an individual test was in the 80s range, so you're certified with a gold star. And on this one you're certified with a platinum star because you got into the 90s. All right, so those certificates now all say that you're certified, but now we go back to the academic structure and say you're an honors graduate.

Jim Cokonis [00:28:50]:
Oh, you graduated summa cum laude. Right. And we start bringing that concept of layers that acknowledge that person's performance. And so you have guys that wear the patch and they wear the bars because they take some pride in it. And it's not to, it's not to knock people down for only having a 75%. But hey, you know, we're going to acknowledge if you study and get this test up to an 80% or how about we take it one step farther? You know, there's all this case certification of continuing education. What if you can document that you have taken training to improve yourself in your area of study, your field, and that adds to your ranking or your certification. And all this can be voluntary, but you create a carrot, not a stick, to ask people to elevate.

Jim Cokonis [00:30:05]:
And now you own a shop, right. And all your people are ASE certified and you're a Blue Seal shop. Or what if a percentage of your people are Blue Seal certified but have a higher performance level? Now there's a, now there's a seal on your blue seal that indicates that you have promoted continuing education and high performance through coaching your technicians. And now you're not just like every other Blue Seal shop. And you can use that as a way to differentiate and market your business.

Jimmy Purdy [00:30:46]:
And I guess that goes back to your question a few minutes ago about what qualifications the shop should have to hire technician that goes through that testing process. Right. I mean, that, that would all kind of tie that together, right? That. So, you know, we further our technicians education. That's why we require this testing application to make sure that you're proficient in, in your job. I don't, I don't see why that couldn't work. The, the main thing is for me anyway, and from what I've understood about everybody else's opinions is it just doesn't mean anything to the consumer. Right? So why should we do this if we can't charge anymore or if the consumer, the clients don't understand what it is.

Jimmy Purdy [00:31:30]:
And I think that's a whole different marketing aspect that needs to be pushed a little bit more. You know, up in Canada they got, you know, you have to be a certified technician. Right. You can't just work on cars. You can't just go buy, go to Harbor Freight and fill up the back of your truck. And now you own a transmission shop. Right. Like you gotta, they require you to do some testing and be certified.

Jimmy Purdy [00:31:52]:
I think that should be in the States.

Jim Cokonis [00:31:53]:
But soon as there are places in the States that do that.

Jimmy Purdy [00:31:58]:
Yeah.

Jim Cokonis [00:31:59]:
You have to have at a minimum of certification of the systems that you're working on. And if you don't, you have to be under the supervision of another technician that has that certification. So, you know, it's always made me crazy. There are states where if you're going to put glass in a vehicle, you have to hold a certification.

Jimmy Purdy [00:32:25]:
Right?

Jim Cokonis [00:32:26]:
Right.

Jimmy Purdy [00:32:27]:
And that blows me away. But you can, you can do tires and brakes with no certification.

Jim Cokonis [00:32:30]:
You can do tires and brakes without it. But somebody got a certification passed because from one of the things that I understood was like a passenger side airbag deploys against the windshield and then out towards you because that, it doesn't have the steering wheel to support it, but the glass has to support it in an accident. And so when you put the glass in, it's got to be put in. Right. Or else the airbag won't work. So it's a safety concern or in certain vehicles it's part of the structural integrity of the vehicle because of how the vehicle's built. And so that glass has to be there. And so you got to be certified for that, but not to put on brakes.

Jim Cokonis [00:33:07]:
And then when we talk about continuing education, you know, everybody's all up in arms about you. You know, you have to be. Use the right equipment and follow service procedures and, and everything for, for recalibrating ADOS systems and yet.

Jimmy Purdy [00:33:22]:
But it's not a safety feature, ados. Right. It's, it's not, it's not viewed as a safety feature. Right. It's still, it's still like an optional add on. Right. It's, it's not viewed under the states or under the government as, as an actual safety feature. So if it's not, it's not, not.

Jim Cokonis [00:33:44]:
That I understand it's becoming mandatory.

Jimmy Purdy [00:33:49]:
What I understand with the ADOS is, is basically an external. And if something is wrong with that system, there is no requirements have it fixed now, after an accident, it's going to be fixed. But if your ADAS system is not working, there is no requirement to make sure that it's fixed. Yet in California, at least some states.

Jim Cokonis [00:34:10]:
Some states, it is required to be working.

Jimmy Purdy [00:34:12]:
If they come in and there's codes in the ADAS system, there is no requirement that that vehicle has to have that fixed. So. And if it was a safety feature, in my opinion, I feel like there needs to be a requirement. If that came into the service center and it said, hey, you have codes for the adas, this needs to be fixed. So you're not re registering your vehicle or they're going to cancel your insurance or whatever, Whatever the mandate that they want to put on that, there is nothing attached to that right now. So in my view, I don't see that as a safety feature.

Jim Cokonis [00:34:43]:
But you don't see it as a safety feature because it's not legally required?

Jimmy Purdy [00:34:49]:
That's one way to put it, yeah.

Jim Cokonis [00:34:50]:
Do you see ABS as a safety feature?

Jimmy Purdy [00:34:55]:
That's a good question. No, I don't know. Not. Not under the same principles. Right.

Jim Cokonis [00:35:00]:
But, but ABS is a required, I guess, buy a vehicle in the US now without abs.

Jimmy Purdy [00:35:07]:
No. Not new. No, it would be. Yeah. It's added, I guess, back to your windshield thing. You have to be certified to put the windshield in because it's part of the safety of the vehicle. That's not required for abs, is not required for adas. I guess that's the point I was trying to get to, is under the whatever on whatever umbrella they want to put that under.

Jimmy Purdy [00:35:28]:
As far as safety features on the vehicle, there is no requirement to have it fixed.

Jim Cokonis [00:35:34]:
Have you seen an event recording from a vehicle that is either that either went into automated emergency braking or the deceleration g force exceeded a certain level? Have you, have you ever seen any of that data, the stuff recorded by some of these cars?

Jimmy Purdy [00:35:51]:
No.

Jim Cokonis [00:35:52]:
Oh, my goodness. Rate of deceleration vehicle speed, pressure on the brake pedal, camera views, radar data of distance to target, rate of closure, estimated time to impact of all the things that this vehicle is tracking. And of course it's applying the brakes and it's calculating all that data based on how the system is supposed to perform. And then nobody's talking about the fact that this vehicle doesn't use dot 4. It's supposed to use one of the new ISO class 6 fluids, which is lighter and thinner. And because the brakes can't apply and release fast enough to perform at the level that they're supposed to without that Fluid level in. And those are the kind of things that, you know, to me, the, the knowledge of the systems and how they operate and how we take care of our clients is many times an issue in education and continuing education to breed awareness. And if we can start marketing that stuff and use it as a differentiator for why we support this and what it means to you in servicing your car, then that's a way, you know, we talk about improving the industry all the time, but it's always focused around KPIs and car counts and average, average dollars of revenue in an hour and all those kinds of things.

Jim Cokonis [00:37:32]:
And all that stuff is, is good and it's important. But what about the concept of making our jobs easier through having the public develop a respect for what we do? Because, you know, the H Vac guys, if you think they don't have to have training, you ought to see some of the programs that these guys have gone through in college and, and how they understand the physics of a refrigeration cycle and why we have people in our industry that, well, this thing isn't cooling, so I'm going to pull all the refrigerant out of it and put it back in and then see what it looks like.

Jimmy Purdy [00:38:15]:
Yeah.

Jim Cokonis [00:38:16]:
And it's like, you know, if the guy that comes to service your H Vac had to do that, you would never want to pay the cost for a service visit.

Jimmy Purdy [00:38:28]:
Right, Right.

Jim Cokonis [00:38:30]:
But they don't have to do that because they understand the pressures and the temperatures and the performance and heck, they even have, they even have computer programs that look at the whole concept of what the enthalpy of that system is supposed to be at different points on a specific humidity. And they can do all that, all.

Jimmy Purdy [00:38:47]:
That stuff, or they should, anyway.

Jim Cokonis [00:38:50]:
It doesn't work. They should anyway. It doesn't work any different really on the base level than what we deal with.

Jimmy Purdy [00:38:57]:
Yeah. Except ours goes down the highway at 80 miles an hour. Okay. And, and you see maybe one, one or two a month, and then you don't see another problem for two or three months and then all of a sudden you have five more. And not to debunk, not, not to go against what you're saying, but just trying to eight track, right. You're doing it every single day. You become, you, you're, you're knowledgeable behind it and you see the same problems day after day after day. You become very proficient with it.

Jimmy Purdy [00:39:24]:
Right. Where they, on the, on the automotive side, you might not see one for two or three months because you've been too busy with other different types of problems on the vehicles. And then you got to go back to being an AC expert.

Jim Cokonis [00:39:34]:
Where's. Where's your shop?

Jimmy Purdy [00:39:36]:
Past World, California.

Jim Cokonis [00:39:38]:
Okay. A lot of moderate temperatures.

Jimmy Purdy [00:39:42]:
Yeah, yeah, we're pretty temperate. I mean, we're pretty bougie too. Right. So even if it's 75 degrees out, they like to have their AC going. So I'm not saying we don't see AC all year long, but we definitely get a little bit of a boom, July, August when it gets to be 100 degrees for, you know, a few hours a day. And then we're, you know, back in the 70s the rest of the year. So we do get that huge push of ac and then we won't see another one till probably maybe February or March. Right.

Jimmy Purdy [00:40:08]:
For AC problems, maybe the occasional one, they're like, hey, you know, I'd like my AC work. And I'm like, well, it's been like a high of 70, but okay, whatever you want to do. My point is, is like we don't see. It takes a very long time for us anyway in this area to have a technician become very proficient with ac. And you can do the training, you can understand the operating principle, but we're all hands on. We like to see the problems and that's the only way we learn. Most of us learn is getting in there, seeing what happens and then understanding the concepts on the backside, which is probably not the right way to, to learn stuff. But also that's why we're in this industry.

Jimmy Purdy [00:40:44]:
Right? Is that where we need to see a problem, we need to fix it with our hands and then we understand it? That's how it works for me and a lot of other technicians that I've hired, it's pretty rare you got a guy that can just read the book, get certified, and then know exactly how that system operates. Right. And be, oh, I know exactly what the problem is because I read in the book that if this pressure here and that looks like that, then this is going to be the problem. Right.

Jim Cokonis [00:41:08]:
Have you ever seen the learning pyramid?

Jimmy Purdy [00:41:12]:
I think you've talked about this before.

Jim Cokonis [00:41:14]:
Yeah, I'm huge on it. Because Brian and I talked about this in the class we did at asta and the SAGE on the stage, the download, heck, even watching a video, the learning from that, the retention is short and it's a low percentage. The, the average person, if they just listen to a lecture, will retain somewhere around 10 to 15% of what they heard. Right?

Jimmy Purdy [00:41:51]:
Yeah, if, if that, yeah.

Jim Cokonis [00:41:53]:
When you start doing things tactically right, you get into the 50 to 60% range. And I think that's what people mistake for being hands on learners.

Jimmy Purdy [00:42:06]:
Okay.

Jim Cokonis [00:42:07]:
Is the amount of retention that happens when you physically do something while learning. It is that creates additional connections in the brain. And so we learn through doing sh.

Jimmy Purdy [00:42:23]:
You don't think we're special?

Jim Cokonis [00:42:25]:
No, I think we're just normal. I think we're just normal. But we do not, we have not practiced the other levels. And the other levels, just above more retention than just sitting and listening or watching a video, but more retention. And just below the physical project is the discussion. It's Friday night shenanigans. It's going to, you know, why do so many people go to tech training and conferences when the content is been the same for many of these things for years and, and they keep going back that. I think there's a couple things that drive that.

Jim Cokonis [00:43:12]:
The forgetting curve, which means that I don't do this enough so I need to go sit in that class again and reinforce it because I don't have a mechanism to keep my, to keep my competency up in it throughout the course of the year. So I'm going to go back and I'm going to take that class again. Okay, that's one piece. But I think the other thing that happens in the people that are regulars, what do they talk about? Oh, the networking. You just can't imagine the networking and the people you'll meet and the conversations you'll have at lunch. And you see some of the veterans that aren't even in the classes. They're sitting around in little tranches of people out in the lobbies having conversations all hours of the day. That's that 40 to 50% level of retention.

Jim Cokonis [00:43:58]:
And that's what draws people and those, those conversations, those seminars, those things that a lot of people in our field didn't do in school. They didn't take the honors classes, they didn't take and have this, you know, book discussions and that sort of thing. So they didn't do that. Now you go beyond that 60, 70%. You want to get up into that 80, 90, 100% of retention, teach somebody. So if you try to teach somebody else, which is what happens in those little conversations or in the live demonstrations, then now you hit that 90, 95% retention because you have to take everything, you know, and break it down and give it to somebody else. How do we take that culture and put it into automotive to, to create this realization that we're not Special. But we can get better by mindfully practicing these other skills and communicating with each other.

Jim Cokonis [00:45:03]:
Having the shop jam sessions where some techs get together, which we've seen around the country, some texts get together and go, hey, check this out. Here's this new tool, here's this technique I've learned, and here's how I learned it. And there's an opportunity for giving, put, taken back and forth. I went to South Carolina decades ago, traveled down to South Carolina to go to Tim Taylor's shop, and we had people from all over the country come in because it was put out on IATN that there was going to be a weekend jam session. And it was a bunch of texts around sharing tools, equipment and techniques. And that's still stuck with me to this day. How do we socialize that, Jim, do.

Jimmy Purdy [00:45:44]:
You think a lot of it, too, is, like, comes from the. The old grumpy technician, right? You try to. The old grumpy mechanic in the back of the shop, try to ask him, you know, hey, can you help me with this? And he has his way of doing it, but has no idea how to explain it. And so it's frustrating. And do you think having that. Having that process in your own mind as you yourself, the technician, I know how to do this. I know that when I see AC pressures that are high on the. High on the low side and low on the high side, I know exactly what to do, right? It's probably low.

Jimmy Purdy [00:46:17]:
I'm going to do my recharge on it. Probably not going to work because I don't truly understand the system. But I know nine times out of 10, that usually fixes that particular problem. But you don't want to explain that because it doesn't seem technically savvy. And so you have to. You have to break through that line of explaining it, like you said, as the teacher. And it's very difficult for someone to do that. And it's the next level of education, you know, does that make sense where it's like you have to.

Jimmy Purdy [00:46:45]:
Once you have to break it down to explain it to somebody else, you realize all the holes that are in your own process. And even though you're a really good technician, most of the time you. You just do it through speed and like, repetition before you finally get it right, you know? And I'm only saying this because I like with transmissions, when I first started building them, I would just build it, put it in, see if it worked. If it didn't, I pull it back out, put it back on the Bench to see what's wrong. Right. I don't think that's something I can explain to the next. The next generation. Right.

Jimmy Purdy [00:47:17]:
I couldn't be like, well, this is what I do. I just give it my best shot. I throw it in there, see if it works. If not, I pull it back out. You do what? That's your process.

Jim Cokonis [00:47:27]:
And it's like, that was you learning. You're not like that now.

Jimmy Purdy [00:47:31]:
No, but in that process, I was still able to get a lot of work done. And if I was to train, you know, someone coming into the industry, there's no way I could have used that. So it was frustrating when someone asked me, hey, can you teach me how to do that? It's like, no. Right. I can't. And it's like, why can't use it? Because I don't really know what the hell I'm doing.

Jim Cokonis [00:47:51]:
But you do. But you do now.

Jimmy Purdy [00:47:53]:
Right? Right. Eventually you get to that. To that point through.

Jim Cokonis [00:47:57]:
What you were doing was experimenting.

Jimmy Purdy [00:48:00]:
Right.

Jim Cokonis [00:48:00]:
You were doing science.

Jimmy Purdy [00:48:02]:
You could say, I have an idea.

Jim Cokonis [00:48:03]:
Of what it is and I'm going to do it.

Jimmy Purdy [00:48:05]:
My hypothesis was that it was going to work.

Jim Cokonis [00:48:08]:
And then you studied the results and you found out, well, that didn't work.

Jimmy Purdy [00:48:12]:
Yeah, that wasn't it at all.

Jim Cokonis [00:48:13]:
Right. That's experimentation. There's nothing wrong with that. That's. That is an actual way of learning. The process. Problem we have with that in the industry is. Oh, is I used to have this saying, if.

Jim Cokonis [00:48:25]:
If I school the vehicle, I get paid well for being the teacher. If the vehicle schools me, I don't expect the client to pay for my education.

Jimmy Purdy [00:48:32]:
That's very true. Yeah.

Jim Cokonis [00:48:34]:
Right. And that's that balancing act. And unfortunately, I think sometimes the clients do pay for our education because we go like, that's just the way it is. And it may be. Maybe it is. But, you know, usually it's. Well, we didn't understand the system as well as we needed to to get there. So I guess my whole con, my whole thought process.

Jim Cokonis [00:48:53]:
And yeah, you're right. I think about this stuff too much. But how do we socialize this idea of continual improvement of the person, the technique, the understanding of technology, how the brain works, how we learn. We don't have to become PhDs in brain science, but we have to acknowledge that this is how it works. We have to stop relying on experts to tell us what to do when we have the ability to learn enough to understand why we need to do something.

Jimmy Purdy [00:49:31]:
Yeah, that's.

Jim Cokonis [00:49:32]:
I guess that's My pitch. That's the concept.

Jimmy Purdy [00:49:34]:
Yeah. And I guess it, it's.

Jim Cokonis [00:49:36]:
It. There's nothing wrong. I used to walk into shops and be like, oh, college boy, are you white shirt wearing? I won't say the words right because they were taught that they, they didn't like math, they didn't like science, they didn't like to read, but they could fix things. And now we're in a. Now we're in a, a occupation that requires us to read and understand technical information, understand concepts of physics in almost every system. Electricity is physics. How does it work? And, and you know, unfortunately, if we don't understand that stuff, we end up with, why isn't it working? Ain't not no gas in it. Sorry I had to go there.

Jim Cokonis [00:50:25]:
And there's nothing wrong with learning and educating ourselves. Is it, will it be tough for some folks? Yes. Is it impossible? No. I know a bunch of brilliant people that fix things and they're good at it. And if you can just encourage them to understand the why that what they did worked, now their understanding is better and their, their level of performance will get better. Why did this customer buy and that one blew up? It's the same thing to me. It's all the same. It's an awareness and an understanding and an ability to improve and realize.

Jim Cokonis [00:51:02]:
You know what? I don't know this as well as I do. As well as I think. Excuse me. As well as I think I do. And I'm going to try and fix that.

Jimmy Purdy [00:51:13]:
And to circle back to your question, there's. It's just ego. I mean, it's just plain straight up ego. You know, how many times have you been in a, in a technical seminar and didn't want to raise your hand and ask a question because you were worried about what everybody else in the class was going to think of you, right? And, and everyone wanting to jump. Well, maybe not you personally, but. But everyone's so ready and willing to just jump on this. The guy that asked the stupid question. So the question's never asked, right? And it's like, who cares what the people think? For one, we're all here to learn.

Jimmy Purdy [00:51:48]:
We're all in this class. But there's always that one person in the class that, that wants to be more educated than the instructor is only there to. Only there to prove to himself and everyone else there that they could be teaching that class, right? And it's like, why are you sitting in here, man? Then go sign up and do the paperwork and teach your own damn class if you want to sit here and talk about how much better you are than the instructor.

Jim Cokonis [00:52:11]:
And you can't. You can't do that. You can't. I've had those guys in class. Yeah. You know, you. You brought up something. And I guess.

Jim Cokonis [00:52:21]:
I guess for years, I would start off class, I'd introduce myself and say, I don't know, everything. Are we good? Because that puts text at ease. And the other thing that I was very passionate about is you talk about these. You talk about these guys not wanting to ask a question. And I have been. I've taken over regions back in my training days. They're not very talkative. And two hours into my first night with a class, I couldn't get them to shut up because they got engaged.

Jim Cokonis [00:52:56]:
And I would say. I would say things like this, jimmy, if you have a question, ask it. Because I don't view that as a shortfall on your standpoint. I view that as someplace for me to improve. If I have not explained something well enough for you to understand it, I want you to ask the question, because I guarantee you somebody else in here has the exact same question. And I would never throw a student under the bus. I had a guy. I had a guy in class one time.

Jim Cokonis [00:53:28]:
I was teaching an evap class back in the day, and we talked about the low pressure that was used to test an evap system, either positive or negative. And this guy in class was, like, nodding, going, yeah, right. And I said, what happened? And please excuse this language, but it was exactly what he said. I was out in Kansas teaching this class. He says, yeah, one of our guys was testing an evap canister, and he hit that thing with shop air, and that shit just blew up. Well, the room. I mean, I had 40 or 50 guys in there, and a room erupted, and I. I started laughing, too.

Jim Cokonis [00:53:58]:
And I just went, okay, all right. And I pulled it down and I said, look, I said, nobody was hurt, right? He says, no. He said, but black went everywhere. Right? All the beads, all the charcoal beads went all over the shop. But never. Never berate a student for asking a question or making a comment. I have seen instructors do that. And I'm just like, what.

Jim Cokonis [00:54:24]:
How would you crush the desire of that student to learn by asking a question just because you think it's not smart or whatever? So, yeah, it's. It's an issue. And that's a whole nother. That's a whole nother topic.

Jimmy Purdy [00:54:39]:
Yeah. Yeah. When you're talking about the. The training aspect and trying to get the. Everyone to buy into the process, I think, is just the main point there, right? And trying to. How do we change the thought process of training, right? And. And it's all those little nuances, I think, and this is my opinion, of course, but sitting there as a technician in some of those classes, you know, it took a lot. It took a lot for me to.

Jimmy Purdy [00:55:04]:
To engage, right? And then the more I engage, the more everyone else starts engaging. You're like, oh, wow. So I just. I just need to be the first one to do it. And then you realize everybody else is thinking the same stuff you are, right? And then you always have the one in there that just wants to just prove themselves that they're smarter than everybody else in the class. And you're like, all right, well, good for you. You know, but that's one of the things.

Jim Cokonis [00:55:28]:
That's one of the biggest feedbacks that we've been hearing. And that was one of the reasons why, you know, Brian and I, when we would talk to class at asta, we were like, you guys, this is going to be an interactive conversation. We are not going to stand here and lecture. You guys are going to have to. Are going to have to talk and get engaged. And I guarantee you we'll learn some stuff we didn't know from you. And if you don't want to talk, we've got these two chairs up here. We'll sit down and be quiet, too.

Jim Cokonis [00:56:02]:
And that's not the norm that's expected at these training things. And I guess my question is, should it be.

Jimmy Purdy [00:56:10]:
As far as, remember the.

Jim Cokonis [00:56:12]:
Learning pyramid, if we get the room into discussion mode, the retention goes up.

Jimmy Purdy [00:56:19]:
Yeah, it is true. And the more you have people teaching each other, one of the things I love is when the. When the guys out on here at the shop, they start showing the processes to a new employee or reinforcing it to somebody else, right? And it's like the most beautiful thing I've ever seen. It's like, oh, look at that. And then it's like it just. It just feeds, right? Like, as soon as you see someone teaching someone else the process that I've written, then it's like. It's like the feedback loop, right? And it's like, now he's gonna ask the other technician, not come and ask for, hey, how do I do this? It's like, it's just beautiful. It grows, right? And I think that.

Jimmy Purdy [00:56:56]:
I think that's the ultimate learning transition.

Jim Cokonis [00:57:00]:
But you really got a dopamine hit. You just got a dopamine hit from watching something that Wasn't broken. So now I'm challenging your perspective.

Jimmy Purdy [00:57:12]:
That's true.

Jim Cokonis [00:57:13]:
Right. Those positive hits.

Jimmy Purdy [00:57:16]:
Yeah.

Jim Cokonis [00:57:16]:
By every time you drive that car you fixed or, or that problem isn't there anymore, that's a reinforcement of dopamine. That's a, That's a positive hit. Positive one in your business.

Jimmy Purdy [00:57:29]:
Yeah, absolutely. And that was the big shift for me. Right. A big mental shift. And I guess what kind of segued this whole conversation today. Right. Like. Yeah, because.

Jimmy Purdy [00:57:39]:
Because once you see the other side, you realize the other side. You can't see the other side unless you're on the other side. Right. But yeah, back to, back to the training topic. It's. It's. If you have a bunch of people in, in that classroom or instructors that haven't seen that other side that don't know that, then that's never going to work. Right.

Jimmy Purdy [00:58:02]:
And if you have, if you don't have, if you lack that engagement. So if you have an instructor like yourself or Brian that are in there that are trying to run the class based on that style of engagement, you got to lead. Was that leading with questions?

Jim Cokonis [00:58:17]:
It's one of the books that's right back here on my desk. Yeah, you might actually like that one.

Jimmy Purdy [00:58:25]:
Yeah.

Jim Cokonis [00:58:25]:
As a shop owner, because it's. It basically cautions you against answering the question of all your employees.

Jimmy Purdy [00:58:34]:
Yeah.

Jim Cokonis [00:58:35]:
Don't answer the question. Ask them questions until they become confident and understanding.

Jimmy Purdy [00:58:39]:
That's very true. Yeah. If. I mean, if they're willing to listen to the. And I guess that goes with anyone in class or in the instructor that wants to run it that way. Right. If you have an instructor that wants Runway, but the whole class is just sitting there ready for a lecture, then it's not going to work. Right.

Jimmy Purdy [00:58:54]:
And I'll sit in any class. I don't mind a lecture and I don't mind being engaged. I'll sit there and I'll sit through the whole thing and take every bit I can because eventually I'll pick up something along the way. But can I expect everyone that's in training to want to have my mindset? I don't think that's a fair thing. And I can't expect everyone to want to learn like me or any, you know, so that's tough. It's like, how do you get an all encompassing training concept that will include everybody? And I think what you do is try to find the, the statistics and say, what's the majority that I need to, to market towards, you know, where.

Jim Cokonis [00:59:33]:
The dopamine Hit comes from on that when you've done a class like that and the quiet person comes up to you at the break or after class and says, man, this was awesome. I know I didn't talk a lot, but man, have you got me thinking, ta da. That's stage one. And then the next time they're in class, they might, they might feel comfortable to engage. What did we just do with that person? We coached them a little bit because we showed them a different world. We showed them a different world.

Jimmy Purdy [01:00:10]:
Yeah.

Jim Cokonis [01:00:10]:
And that's where I, that's where I, that's what makes me keep going and, and stay, you know, true to some of these things that I've studied and come to believe. I mean, I taught martial arts for 11 years and I was at the school four to six nights a week and training and teaching and to watch people grow and, and to realize that it was a journey and a constant path of reinforcement and that the key to the advanced stuff is in the basics. And to quote Brian Pollock, we don't have to take an 18 channel scope and determine the phase of the moon to solve 99 of the problems we see day in and day out. Right. I can fix a lot of things with a test light and a volt meter.

Jimmy Purdy [01:01:01]:
Yeah.

Jim Cokonis [01:01:02]:
So.

Jimmy Purdy [01:01:03]:
So I guess, I guess. And the last couple things here and last thoughts. When it comes to this stuff and training, do you think it's more important to get when you're in training to walk away with something that immediately helps you, or do you think it's more important to change the mindset of the person that's sitting in the class to understand that training is much more valuable than just going looking for the answer to the one problem that you have in the shop.

Jim Cokonis [01:01:32]:
You know, I've heard it said a lot. Find one thing that you can take back and use in the bay tomorrow. And I think too often that's, you know, look at this test, look at this technique, look at this tool. And unfortunately that's what a lot of it becomes. But if you can walk away with one concept, even if it's as simple as just read the factory manual if you don't know. Right.

Jimmy Purdy [01:02:05]:
Yeah.

Jim Cokonis [01:02:07]:
That's what RTFM stands for, by the way. So if you just go and read about something you don't know, and if that's a concept that you take out of a class, that's a win. Because if you're trying to fix something and asking yourself questions and that class just helped you ask better questions, you've taken something away so don't look for something exciting and some cool flashy thing every time in training, but look for some thought that changes how you approach your job and you will get better.

Jimmy Purdy [01:02:48]:
That's huge. Yeah. If you're listening, Rewind that. Listen to that again. Listen to that a couple more times.

Jim Cokonis [01:02:59]:
Say it louder for the people who now back. Yeah, now that's. That's what I go in with. That's. And I'm always looking for that new concept and. And sometimes it's a learner in the room that gives it to me. I didn't ever think about it like that because they have a different experience.

Jimmy Purdy [01:03:20]:
You know, that's what you should have. You should have plants in the back of the class that are actually like an instructor, Right? So you. Because no one wants to listen to the actual teacher, right? So you just have someone that's just in the class as a plant and just kind of feeding out little things here and there. Because you're right. I think a lot of the times we listen to our peers more than we do the instructor. Right? So maybe use that as a. As a concept. Maybe put a plant in the back.

Jimmy Purdy [01:03:47]:
Put the actual instructor. Have him sit with the classes. Have some goofball up front just jabbering away.

Jim Cokonis [01:03:57]:
The nice part is when you know people in the room and you. You call them out. Come on, tell the story. I know you know about this. Share your perspective. I'm gonna shut up. You listen to them for a while.

Jimmy Purdy [01:04:07]:
Not sitting in any of your classes.

Jim Cokonis [01:04:09]:
Oh, come on, man. Dive in the water spun.

Jimmy Purdy [01:04:14]:
Well, Joe, this has been extremely insightful. What's that?

Jim Cokonis [01:04:17]:
I've enjoyed this. Thank you. Thank you for having a nice chat.

Jimmy Purdy [01:04:20]:
There's definitely a lot of insightful stuff that's. I'm gonna have to go back and listen to it myself.

Jim Cokonis [01:04:26]:
I am not inciting a riot, though, just any. Oh, words mean things, Jimmy.

Jimmy Purdy [01:04:36]:
Sometimes they do, don't they? And it's not what you say, but how you say it so.

Jim Cokonis [01:04:40]:
Well, you know what. What's the old expression? Emphasis, Right? Damn the torpedoes full speed ahead. That's how we hear that quote. And it sounds confident. Just go. Right. But it also could have been damn the torpedoes, full speed ahead. And that's a completely different picture.

Jimmy Purdy [01:04:59]:
That is. Well, I like. I like the Uncle Jack. When you're helping your Uncle Jack off of a horse.

Jim Cokonis [01:05:09]:
Yes.

Jimmy Purdy [01:05:09]:
Just make sure that comma is in the middle there. It's very, very important that you pause at this very specific time in that statement.

Jim Cokonis [01:05:16]:
Let's eat grandma. Right.

Jimmy Purdy [01:05:21]:
Same thing. Right. Not what you say, but how you say it.

Jim Cokonis [01:05:25]:
Absolutely.

Jimmy Purdy [01:05:26]:
Well, thanks again, Jim.

Jim Cokonis [01:05:27]:
Thanks.